Man vs. Machine Distributed Capacitance

[ken]

I'm serious...

the hardest thing about the entire CNC deal is finding the information. If you can follow a schematic, build a circuit board, and write computer programs in BASIC, you can CNC. If you use Jason's winder design and you used his 'fan motor' autotraverse mech, most of the mechanical work of retrofitting for CNC is already done. You can use a gear rack and pinion like I did on my Stevens, on 'his design's' traverse shaft. Parts are easy to find too, in fact the stepper motor I use here I swiped from an old HP serial Scanjet scanner. You can salvage parts from scanners, copiers or printers, and you only need one stepper to autotraverse well.

You can use an old Win3.1/95 computer wit a RS-232 port, and Visual Basic or even old school DOS Basic to write the driver program if you can't find one on the web, so it's relatively cheap too.

I liked Possum's machine too, and Spence's, that is until the extension cord ran out.

I have tendonitis too 'just like Possum' but in both hands, and it really blows. I can only wind a few pickups a day too, so anything I can do to make things easier on me I'll do. I always thought the old guys were kidding when they claimed they can feel weather changes in their bones... if the weather gets really bad I can't wind barely at all and I can play for about 10 minutes tops before my left hand locks up.

Ken

[mick]

+1 Ken , and as you know we have spoken direct on several occasions , thanks for the offer

Greg , again mate you can throw up whatever argument you like to try to back up your comments , but again you are only passing on information , I may not machine wind true but by the same token it doesn't mean that I know nothing about that method , also , there are lots of people out there with good ears , great players etc but ask them to make a guitar or wind a pickup? well you get the picture..It doesn't make for an expert on the subject..., why don't we all give a machine winder a set of specs for some pickups , all different , that way we can just get someone else to do the winding and just assemble them....great idea eh? what's the diff??

but what do I care ? business is increasing more and more because of how I wind ( hand guided , tensioned )and because of people wanting to move away from " factory " gear...I'm sure if I shouted from the treetops that my coils were machine wound I would be rather less in demand.

Mick




Mick

[Spence]

The funny thing from my point of view is that a good few people here who are now using some sort of CNC are convinced that their CNC autowinder has an edge on the CNC machines used by Duncan, DiMarzio,and all the others like GFS. These big companies have millions of dollars to spend on R & D.

I know my customers would walk away the minute I told them that handwinding is dead, CNC is alive and kicking. They'll just go to another handwinder. They have come to me because they have seen the benefits over the CNC-made pickups that are flooding every corner of the market.

As for repetitive strain disorder, I fully sympathise as I have suffered from that for years in other areas of my daily grind. Not with my winder though. I designed it with RSD in mind.

[ken]

I still love to handwind, but the feeling of numbing pain creeping in when you're midway through your third coil is really demoralizing. I actually plan my days so if the weather is bad I don't wind. Of course, for those days when I have to wind anyway, a couple of single mashes goes down well... To me, the only edge CNC winders would have over hand guiding is repeatability. If I didn't have my hand issues, I'd handwind every one of my pickups. Also, there is no CNC winder better than any other one, the magic is in the 'human element' not in a microchip.

Besides, I had no choice, I had to CNC the winder. I bought it to do humbucker coils since I figured I should wind them the same way Gib did. Unfortunately, most of the traverse parts were already missing when I bought the winder, and Stevens wanted $80 for one 40 pitch change gear and $125+ per cam. Each cam only does one size bobbin too. They said they had a 'scatterwind' cam too but I never saw one. Of course, I can also put a knob on the side of the rack gear so I can hand guide the traverse if need be.

Ken

[Joe Gwinn]

Mr Gwinn, I rejumped into this thread at this point about six posts back when Mick was discussing the finer points of 'real' vanilla food flavor. In an attempt to add some levity, I posted my own reply to him. There was nothing random about my post, and I resent any implication that I am a 'random person with random thoughts?' per your own post, as if I don't belong here. I have been a member here awhile too.

Easy there. It was a standard random-number joke, directed at no particular person.

[JGundry]

The funny thing from my point of view is that a good few people here who are now using some sort of CNC are convinced that their CNC autowinder has an edge on the CNC machines used by Duncan, DiMarzio,and all the others like GFS. These big companies have millions of dollars to spend on R & D..

The above mentioned companies would have a tendency to dump a load of money into a $20,000 plus winder with an eye on producing the largest number of pickups as quickly and cheaply as possible. That line of thinking would likely get you a winder that did not have some of the key controls that an independent maker could build into their own machine if they built it from the ground up. Those extra controls will help you make a superior product.

[soundmasterg]

Greg , again mate you can throw up whatever argument you like to try to back up your comments , but again you are only passing on information , I may not machine wind true but by the same token it doesn't mean that I know nothing about that method , also , there are lots of people out there with good ears , great players etc but ask them to make a guitar or wind a pickup? well you get the picture..It doesn't make for an expert on the subject..., why don't we all give a machine winder a set of specs for some pickups , all different , that way we can just get someone else to do the winding and just assemble them....great idea eh? what's the diff??

but what do I care ? business is increasing more and more because of how I wind ( hand guided , tensioned )and because of people wanting to move away from " factory " gear...I'm sure if I shouted from the treetops that my coils were machine wound I would be rather less in demand.

Mick

Mick, I'm glad to hear that business is going well for you, and I can see why you stick with what you do, since your business appears to based off hand-winding vs machine winding. I see what you're saying about just finding someone else to do the winding if you give them the specs, but thats not the same as what I was talking about because someone else doing it for you wouldn't have the experience level that someone like Possum or Jason et al has, and that experience is what makes the difference. Someone like Fender can change all the formulas they want with the wind, but if they don't scatter at all, or don't vary the scatter per layer or vary the tension as they wind, then it won't sound very good, even if its done by hand. Someone like Possum, who has done the handwinding method, and isn't satisfied with run of the mill stuff, will take his time to learn how to use his machine to achieve the sound he wants. In his case, using the machine saves wear and tear on his body, allows him to be consistant with what he is trying to achieve, and (in theory) allows him more time to prototype new designs or drink beer down at the jam. Moreover, if he's trying to emulate a pickup that was originally done on machine winders like a PAF, then using a machine is appropriate as it will give you different options that hand-winding won't do.

I know what you're saying about how much the actual experience with something matters. I don't try to pass myself off as someone who knows everything about winding pickups, whether its by machine or by hand...I can only speak on what I've observed, and I freely admit that I've never wound a pickup myself. Of course that limits my knowledge, no matter how much I've paid attention in the past to some of my friend's setups. That said, I do know more about the subject than some average newbie, and you're probably at about the same level on machine winding since you haven't done that yourself either. I just suggest to keep an open mind until you try it yourself. I think on the surface, theres more to know about building guitars (I do this btw) than winding pickups, but like anything once you get into it, theres always more to learn and the devil is in the details.

For myself, I think I'd want to make a machine winder that can do the CNC programming, or be disconnected and be run totally by hand. This way I could wind either way to suit my needs. Unless I'm mistaken, I believe this is what Possum's machine will do, and I know Wolfe's will do it too.

Greg

[mick]

Well Greg , my business is not based on hand wound V's machine wound
( that's an incredibly naive thing to say really ) although if my customers wanted machine wound then they obviously wouldn't be contacting me in the first place , but they don't want machine wound and the question I get asked the most is if I really hand wind or " It's great someone is still hand winding " , I don't really need to jump up and down and shout about it ( or make references to machine wound patterns replicated by hand or some crap like that) and to be honest the more machine wound the merrier... as for keeping an open mind Greg I think that maybe you should do the same too and maybe once you have hand wound a couple of pickups yourself you might see what all the fuss is about ( then again you probably won't because you already seem to have made up your mind ) . But go ahead and machine wind , you will be just another CNC winder , and that's good for me and a few others...

Mick

[soundmasterg]

but what do I care ? business is increasing more and more because of how I wind ( hand guided , tensioned )

Well Mick, I got the impression your business was advertising and/or trading on the fact that you do hand winding as opposed to machine winding by what you said earlier, so if thats naive, then please enlighten me as to the difference.

as for keeping an open mind Greg I think that maybe you should do the same too and maybe once you have hand wound a couple of pickups yourself you might see what all the fuss is about ( then again you probably won't because you already seem to have made up your mind ) . But go ahead and machine wind , you will be just another CNC winder , and that's good for me and a few others...

Mick

I do have an open mind, which is why I want to build a machine that will allow me to do CNC winds, OR, to be able to disconnect all of that and do a hand guided and hand tensioned wind. This way I only have to build one winder, and I can use either method so I can learn about both instead of restricing myself to one or the other. Despite your apparant disdain for a machine winder, Wolfe's and Possum's both allow them to disconnect the CNC control and hand guide and hand tension their winds if they want, so when the CNC control and clamp tension is disconnected, how is this any different than what you are doing?

Moreover, I don't ever intend to get into production of pickups unless I'm doing them for my own guitars or experiments, so I won't really be a competitor to anyone here as far as I can see. Theres already a lot of very good winders around who are serving that market so I don't see a need to add myself to that lot.

How long have you been winding pickups yourself Mick? I would bet its not 20 years like Jason, 10 years like Wolfe, or 7 years like Possum? Forgive me if I tend to accept what they say about winding pickups a little more readily than what you might say...

And don't get me wrong, I like hand wound pickups...I have several from Wolfe and TV Jones. I just don't think they are inherently superior to machine wound pickups as long as the details are paid attention to and as long as a good winder is doing the wind......that doesn't have anything to do with not having wound pickups before either. Winding pickups yourself doesn't make your ears hear any better when you're comparing pickups....

Greg

[mick]

" Well Mick, I got the impression your business was advertising and/or trading on the fact that you do hand winding as opposed to machine winding by what you said earlier,

Nope , and if you point me to where I gave you the impression I was advertising that I hand wind/ trade on the fact that I hand wind I'll gladly edit my post .


" I do have an open mind, which is why I want to build a machine that will allow me to do CNC winds, OR, to be able to disconnect all of that and do a hand guided and hand tensioned wind. This way I only have to build one winder, and I can use either method so I can learn about both instead of restricing myself to one or the other."


Well Greg no you don't have an open mind ,sorry but if your mind really was open you would wait until you yourself had actually wound something by each method and then form your own opinion on what you yourself think sounds better ,

"Despite your apparant disdain for a machine winder, Wolfe's and Possum's both allow them to disconnect the CNC control and hand guide and hand tension their winds if they want, so when the CNC control and clamp tension is disconnected, how is this any different than what you are doing? "

That makes for a great comparison Greg , I'm really not sure how to answer that one? oh hang on...err how about none whilst disengaged but maybe a bit different whilst in automated mode?? hows that ?


" How long have you been winding pickups yourself Mick? I would bet its not 20 years like Jason, 10 years like Wolfe, or 7 years like Possum? Forgive me if I tend to accept what they say about winding pickups a little more readily than what you might say..."


Longer than you Greg.... Longer than you... , Hmmm wonder if that makes my opinion more readily acceptable to you than yours then ?

Mick

[soundmasterg]

Nope , and if you point me to where I gave you the impression I was advertising that I hand wind/ trade on the fact that I hand wind I'll gladly edit my post .

Mick, I quoted from your previous post where you said this:

but what do I care ? business is increasing more and more because of how I wind ( hand guided , tensioned )

which is where I got the impression that you are advertising that you hand wind and hand tension as opposed to machine winding. If that isn't what you do, then you gave the impression there in your previous post.

Well Greg no you don't have an open mind ,sorry but if your mind really was open you would wait until you yourself had actually wound something by each method and then form your own opinion on what you yourself think sounds better ,

I don't need to be a guitar pickup winder to be able to determine what sounds good or what doesn't sound good. Even someone who doesn't play guitar or bass themselves can have a valid opinion of what something sounds like. Since everyone hears differently due to the physics of our ears and eardrums, everyone's opinion of what something sounds like is valid. If I wound pickups myself, and had experience with both methods of winding, then I could know the details and techniques that will get me certain sounds with each method, and I would have a deeper understanding of that aspect of it, but knowing first-hand how to wind pickups doesn't make a difference in how you hear the pickups aside from having a deeper understanding of the subtle techniques behind achieving the sound. I have experience with both types of pickups from a player's perspective, and with that experience, I can say that the hand vs machine thing doesn't matter as much as the person doing the wind and what their experience level is.

I'm not saying that hand winding or machine winding sounds any better than the other. I'm saying that either technique is a valid way to wind pickups, and can achieve similar sounds to the other, and neither is better or worse. The techniques used with each winding method differ in order for you to achieve the sounds you are after, but that is something that an experienced winder will discover if they don't have preconceived notions that one method is better than the other. I want to build a winder for myself that will allow me to use either method so I can learn all about both methods. How is that not an open mind? If I compare it to your opinion that hand winding is superior in all cases to a machine wind, it sounds a lot more open minded to me than your opinion.

Longer than you Greg.... Longer than you... , Hmmm wonder if that makes my opinion more readily acceptable to you than yours then ?

Since you haven't done machine winding yourself, then your opinion on those type of pickups is just as good as mine. The whole thing that started me in on this was your attacks of machine winding as not being as good as hand winding and your attacking JGundry's and Possum's posts on that subject. Since you haven't machine wound for yourself, your opinion isn't as valid as either of theirs since they've done both and have found that they can get similar sounds from each method with some experimentation.

Dunno , but I don't see them on here either telling everyone how much better machine wounds are either ,or why they are a better pickup because of it...and the fact that you mention their names , what are you trying to drag them in to support your argument ? I don't really give a toss who says otherwise machine wounds are not as good as handwounds.... so machine winding doesn't take the human factor out of winding pickups ? that's as ridiculous as saying that a warmoth is full of the human factor because someone has to program the router , cnc'd body and neck then yeah it's removed and put in a box by a human , it's all about profit and time guys , most of you have day jobs too so you can just get someone to load up the bobbins whilst you are at work and assemble them later , fine nothing wrong with that but to sit here and bollocks on about how great they are because you are now using that method is a shame really...

Mick

It seems from this that you've formed an opinion of machine wound pickups as being inferior to hand wound pickups and you don't have an open mind about it. If you're basing this on the mass produced samples from Gibson, Fender, Dimarzio, etc., then yes you have a valid point. But when you throw in the custom designed selection from Wolfe, Possum, JGundry, etc., who spend some time learning how to use the machine to achieve a good sounding pickup then unless you've tried it yourself, you're just spouting off about it. Why limit yourself when learning about any subject to only the stuff you know? Expand your horizons and learn about all aspects of the craft so you can truly be an expert and know what you're talking about. I'm not saying this as someone who thinks they are an expert in pickup winding....I'm saying this as someone who is commited to learning all he can about the craft and the fact that having more truly knowledgeable and widely experienced people around in this industry can only help everyone to make better pickups. Thats why I say, keep an open mind about machine winding.

Greg

[mick]

Greg

"Mick, I quoted from your previous post where you said this:"

Quote:
but what do I care ? business is increasing more and more because of how I wind ( hand guided , tensioned )


"which is where I got the impression that you are advertising that you hand wind and hand tension as opposed to machine winding. If that isn't what you do, then you gave the impression there in your previous post."


No I didn't , I said that business is increasing because of how I wind... I really can't see how you got any impression from this that I advertise that I hand wind ? I don't advertise at all at the moment , no need to...but if I do advertise I will mention it though..


Mick

[mick]

"It seems from this that you've formed an opinion of machine wound pickups as being inferior to hand wound pickups "

Absolutely...

" Expand your horizons and learn about all aspects of the craft so you can truly be an expert and know what you're talking about "

Hand winding is a craft Greg , I just don't happen to think that programing a machine is ,

"then unless you've tried it yourself, you're just spouting off about it"

and so are you...

Mick

[SK66]

I believe they would be virtually indistinguishable. I've had pickups in of identical specs, one machine wound and one hand wound. All of the "empirical data" said they were "the same". I did not get to hear them, they were not mine.
I have no issue whatsoever with "machine wound". Some can sound great, some can sound like crap. The same is true for handwound pickups.

WHAT I CAN'T STAND! is "custom" or "handwound" sales hype for what amounts to mass production. IMO that's fraudulent and wrong. (that is NOT to say you can't wind a "custom" pickup on an automatic machine)

[Sock Puppet]

Listen to Johnny Whitehill with a Vintage gold top he picked up for £99 - the pickups are held together with wax!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZlcdlv2r-8

Hard parrafin wax.

S.