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jazzmaster Pickup - coil winds, general schematic (CORRECT FORUM)

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  • jazzmaster Pickup - coil winds, general schematic (CORRECT FORUM)

    Hey guys - I posted in the wrong forum, so I'm correcting by coming here (forgive me: I never navigate these forums right).

    I'm a noob, getting ready to make my first p/ups for a jazzmaster.

    I know they're RWRP for humbucking. I have the flatwork, alnico V rods and 42gauge heavy formvar wire ready to go.

    I'm told the neck should be at 7.6k and bridge at 8.4k. I'm told that roughly 9500 - 9800 winds will get me to the highest output, and roughly 800 less will get me to the lower output.

    Can anyone verify the number of winds for me? :-) Thanks in advance!

    I also made this (still have to update the winds section, though):


  • #2
    Hi Greysun

    I think plain enamel wire might be a better way to go, from what I have seen thats what was used on the originals so you might need to make a slightly higher coil to compensate for the thicker insulation. I have an old one in my hand and magnet height is 12.047mm coil thickness 3.7 mm bobbin width 38.5 mm length 89.15 mm its wound to about 2 mm from the bobbin sides marked 8-2-65 BJ magnets vary from 0.1859 inch to 0.190 inch wire 0.00255 inch 0.064 mm overall diameter going not to hard on the micrometer with 4 strands measured at the same time to get a better measurement spacing on magnets is 55.3 mm outside edges of magnet e to e measured. I hope this is of some use to you. It would be nice if we could have a database of accurate pickup dimensions on the forum. the Bobbin dimensions were from a dried out pickup that was water damaged Iīm not sure if the fibreboard swells out any when wet or shrinks back to itīs original size, maybe someone else can chirp in here Light fibreboard bye the way and laquered.

    Cheers

    Andrew

    Comment


    • #3
      My research tells me that the originals were plain enamel from '58 to '62, and in '62 they switched to the formvar (which has a generally warmer tone over the enamel) until at least '66, when it changed to a polysol (whatever that is).

      All my research tells me that the taller the coil, the more strat-like the tone is. Japanese JMs from the 80's and 90's have taller coils and lose the JM tone, which I commonly hear complaints about in the forums. Newer vintage reissues use the flatter and wider coils, and most p/up makers (seymour duncan, curtis novak, and even fender themselves) use the flatter and wider coil.

      This goes against what you're saying, so I just want to make sure I didn't miss something? In general, the coil will be right about 3/16" tall (maybe a little shorter)... I thought I got all my specs right...

      Comment


      • #4
        Hi Greysun

        The pickups I have were from a 65 and have a reddish brown wire lighter than the late 60īs early 70īs strat wire and not the orange colour of standard early strat Formvar. The extra height I mentioned was meant to be half a millimeter or so just to compensate for the heavier insulation of the formvar and not as deep as the Japanese models which sound more like a strat than anything else. (I have pressed the bobbins together on a Jap JM pickup and rewound it to more original specs, it worked well considering the magnets were much longer and the customer was very happy) I measured the coil thickness top to bottom 3.7-3.8 mm with a micrometer without the bobbins which were falling apart but the coil had kept itīs shape well. the thickness of the pickup is 8.58 mm measured and might have been slightly thinner as the fibre has swollen a bit from the water damage. Sorry about the misunderstanding about the thickeness compensation for the heavier formvar insulation. The original guitar bye the way was a candyapple red model that had been in a flood for a while and had to have fairly major repair work done new fingerboard truss rod pups.

        Cheers

        Andrew

        Comment


        • #5
          My bad - I should've done the conversion before typing - 3.8mm is 0.1496" - shorter than I was thinking, actually. :-) My apologies...

          I'm jealous of that JM - flood damage or not, I'd be all over it and fix that puppy up. ;-)

          Comment


          • #6
            High Greysun

            No problem. The guitar was in a bad state but the customer wanted it to cosmetically stay that way. I managed to melt the blistered finish back together by spraying it with thinners (you canīt get laquer amalgamator in Europe)

            Cheers

            Andrew

            Comment


            • #7
              I have a '59 Jazzmaster that's also not in the best condition. The original pickups are dead. One of these days I plan on restoring it.

              My notes say the pickups have 8,500 turns of PE or Formvar. You might not fit heavy formvar on those bobbins. I haven't tried it so I don't know.

              I did a mod once where I put a P-90 under the cover of the bridge pickup on my guitarist's Jazzmaster. His was also candy apple red. I had to file out the holes in the bobbin to allow the screws to be spaces farther apart. That turned out real nice and gave a new diminution to the tone. So winding the bridge hotter is probably a good idea.
              It would be possible to describe everything scientifically, but it would make no sense; it would be without meaning, as if you described a Beethoven symphony as a variation of wave pressure. — Albert Einstein


              http://coneyislandguitars.com
              www.soundcloud.com/davidravenmoon

              Comment


              • #8
                I actually find vintage spec jazz pups in the bridge to be reallllly bright. I generally use something around a 9K in the neck and 14k in the bridge. It sounds high for the bridge but it still keeps clarity and adds a bit more beef

                Comment


                • #9
                  Hey guys! An update - I wound 1 strat pickup so far that I got as a kit from Mojotone.com - had a break at 2100 turns, had to start over, got it to 8100 turns, and I got it to 6.04k output. Good times.

                  Now I'm working through the jazzmaster pickups - I'm about 4500 turns so far on the first one, gonna start again in a minute. I put the bobbins together for this one myself - sanded the insides flat, pounded the posts in place, glued the posts in place (just to be safe) and sprayed them with clear gloss - the coil wire is still catching on the sides a bit, so hopefully I don't get a break (or already had one), but I guess you never know. This is STRESSFUL! If these work, great - but I don't know if I could wind anymore jazzy p/ups after this, LOL...

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by greysun View Post
                    Hey guys! An update - I wound 1 strat pickup so far that I got as a kit from Mojotone.com - had a break at 2100 turns, had to start over, got it to 8100 turns, and I got it to 6.04k output. Good times.

                    Now I'm working through the jazzmaster pickups - I'm about 4500 turns so far on the first one, gonna start again in a minute. I put the bobbins together for this one myself - sanded the insides flat, pounded the posts in place, glued the posts in place (just to be safe) and sprayed them with clear gloss - the coil wire is still catching on the sides a bit, so hopefully I don't get a break (or already had one), but I guess you never know. This is STRESSFUL! If these work, great - but I don't know if I could wind anymore jazzy p/ups after this, LOL...
                    SUCCESS - 9800 turns got me to 8.4k - SWEET. Here's some pics:

                    Click image for larger version

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                    Click image for larger version

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                    Comment


                    • #11
                      That bobbin looks too thick. The originals had a thinner coil. Plain enamel is most correct except for some funky stuff going on in the 1962-6 era when some other wire was used (I don't believe it is actually Formvar at all, it is inbetween a Formvar and Plain Enamel). The coil should also completely fill the bobbin. It is not odd to see winds touching the cover.

                      Magnets should also be almost flush on the top with a ton sticking out on the backside. The backside is also where the bevel exists.
                      Last edited by Jim Shine; 03-05-2012, 03:52 PM.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Jim Shine View Post
                        That bobbin looks too thick. The originals had a thinner coil. Plain enamel is most correct except for some funky stuff going on in the 1962-4 era when some other wire was used (I don't believe it is actually Formvar at all, it is inbetween a Formvar and Plain Enamel). The coil should also completely fill the bobbin. It is not odd to see winds touching the cover.

                        Magnets should also be almost flush on the top with a ton sticking out on the backside. The backside is also where the bevel exists.
                        For this particular build, the spacing in the center is 4.5mm - slightly larger than normal (I measured between 4.2 and 4.3mm on the actual jazzy pups I have in my jazzmaster, as well as a couple antiquities at the local guitar shop in town) because of the heavy guage formvar. The coil comes less than 1mm from hanging over the edge on the sides of the neck pickup. The JM pickups I've seen don't hang over the edges - if anything, I was a little worried about how close I got compared to ones I've seen.

                        The magnets on the JM pickups are flat with the bottom, and stick out at the top as far as mine do, which is how I've seen them in every picture - I compared the heights in my current AVRI jazzy, and my poles stick out as far as the AVRI's on the top, and I wasn't able to buy them any shorter than .531" high, so they stick out the back a bit, which I'm not worried about. They also aren't beveled, but that doesn't bother me either.

                        As for the formvar vs. plain enamel debate, all my research suggests that formvar was used from '62 until the CBS era, when the flatwork color and wire was changed again. Either way, I have the reading that I want, and it's all to spec as far as I've seen... Maybe I'm not looking at enough of these p/ups, or maybe the picture isn't doing it justice (it was taken with an iPhone).

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by greysun View Post
                          SUCCESS - 9800 turns got me to 8.4k - SWEET. Here's some pics:

                          [ATTACH=CONFIG]17583[/ATTACH]

                          [ATTACH=CONFIG]17584[/ATTACH]
                          Good Job.
                          If you find the wire hanging on the edges, and everything is smooth?
                          Try Narrowing Your wire Guide Stops just a bit.
                          If it sounds good that is the important thing.
                          I always like a little more magnet sticking out the top on my Strat Coils than stock.
                          So I don't see any problem with that.
                          I always bevel my magnets on both ends.
                          All my strat players like them beveled and smooth on top.
                          Unless your restoring an old relic, do them the way You Like, I do!
                          Good Luck,
                          Terry


                          "If Wishes Were Horses, Beggars Would Ride!" Scottish Proverb 1600s
                          Terry

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            You obviously have no experience with old ones. Antiquities, Fender reissues, all wrong. The top is always flat and almost flush with the magnets protruding from the backside. The coils fill the bobbins, especially in the first 4 or so years. I have repaired easily 50-75 vintage Jazzmaster pickups from coils rubbing the cover.

                            I only state this with hands on experience of a few hundred vintage Jazzmasters.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Jim Shine View Post
                              You obviously have no experience with old ones. Antiquities, Fender reissues, all wrong. The top is always flat and almost flush with the magnets protruding from the backside. The coils fill the bobbins, especially in the first 4 or so years. I have repaired easily 50-75 vintage Jazzmaster pickups from coils rubbing the cover.

                              I only state this with hands on experience of a few hundred vintage Jazzmasters.
                              This is true, actually - I should state that my favorite guitar is my '62 AVRI, which is what I was basing the pickups on. Since I'm putting these into a strat (I know, blasphemy!), I wanted to get as close to the right coil size with the formvar as vintage, but still with with posts and flatwork matching to my AVRI. I think they'll work just fine... hopefully. ;-)

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