new gibson ccontrol cavity circuit board CRAP

[FunkyKikuchiyo]

I think it might be the other way around. I've seen posts where all that was done was changing to the 50s wiring, and then how that makes the guitar brighter.

You have to do one thing or the other to see if it makes a change, not both at the same time.

If you really want to test caps, wire a few different types to a rotary switch, and then play, switch, and listen. It would also be good to do this without knowing which selection is which cap, as to prevent conformation bias. You may be surprised.

My experience is when the tone pot in on 10 that the cap plays almost no role at all in the tone. I also don't hear any difference worth noting between different cap types as long as they are within spec. When a half hour or so goes by between the stock guitar and the rewired guitar, how can you compare what you are hearing? You are going by memory. Use a switch, and then hear the difference in real time.

I think we've officially hijacked the thread (sorry Jason)...

I have to respectfully disagree, David. On 10, the 50s wiring should make absolutely no difference. And, I have found I hear a difference in the caps on 10, and it is MORE dramatic on 10 than lower down. Of course as you roll off differences present themselves more, but I find I don't care as much about what that sounds like, because I don't use those tones as much. We have more of an impression in our heads of what it should sound like on 10, where as the sweep of the tone pot is something you play with more often than not. My feeling is that caps sound different because no cap provides ONLY capacitance to a circuit. All sorts of other things happen, and those things seem to happen wherever the tone controls sits. I especially hear the differences comparing ceramic disks to everything else - those seem to have the most recognizable "sonic signature". Some of them sound closer to "no cap" when on 10 than others, too. I have an audio-phile over priced PTFE cap that basically sounds like there isn't a tone control when it is on 10. Every other cap (even really nice ones) have some sort of sound when they're on 10.

I'd suggest alligator clips over a switch. It is faster, and you can try more caps that way. I've done it a few times...

[David Schwab]

I think we've officially hijacked the thread (sorry Jason)...

I have to respectfully disagree, David. On 10, the 50s wiring should make absolutely no difference. And, I have found I hear a difference in the caps on 10, and it is MORE dramatic on 10 than lower down. Of course as you roll off differences present themselves more, but I find I don't care as much about what that sounds like, because I don't use those tones as much. We have more of an impression in our heads of what it should sound like on 10, where as the sweep of the tone pot is something you play with more often than not. My feeling is that caps sound different because no cap provides ONLY capacitance to a circuit. All sorts of other things happen, and those things seem to happen wherever the tone controls sits. I especially hear the differences comparing ceramic disks to everything else - those seem to have the most recognizable "sonic signature". Some of them sound closer to "no cap" when on 10 than others, too. I have an audio-phile over priced PTFE cap that basically sounds like there isn't a tone control when it is on 10. Every other cap (even really nice ones) have some sort of sound when they're on 10.

I'd suggest alligator clips over a switch. It is faster, and you can try more caps that way. I've done it a few times...

I don't wire any guitars up using 50s wiring, but I was reporting what every forum post I have read says. So I have to take that antidotal evidence on their word, and at the same time realize that people hear what they expect to hear.

Well as I said, wire up a rotary switch with 6 different types of caps rated the same, and switch them and see. Alligator clips are not faster, how do you figure? You have to stop and re-clip and repeat. With a rotary you can switch while you are playing. I've done the same thing testing pot values with EMGs back when I used them. That lead me to hear that 100k pots sounded better than the 25k they use. If I had to stop and reconnect wires I wouldn't have noticed it. But switching a switch and then playing some notes made it very apparent.

Maybe I'll have to do a trail and post audio examples. Which is what everyone saying that caps have a "sonic signature" should do. Record it and compare. Then post the recordings. otherwise it's the placebo affect.

I can see if the ESR of caps was radically different it might impact the tone on 10, because one has more resistance, but the ESR of caps used in tone controls is fractions of an ohm.

I've tried all manner of caps and don't hear a "sonic signature" out of any of them when used in a guitar tone control. And I actually use my tone control!

I continue to use this style of cap:

[FunkyKikuchiyo]

I consider the alligator clips faster because you don't have to wire up a switch, and can have more than six options going at once. That also lets you listen to what differences tolerances and values will make in addition to dielectric without rewiring, and it really isn't all that slow. I don't like doing the recordings, because you have the added distortion of the recording process. I'm not saying it isn't useful - but I think you need to have a really good recording set up for it to be a be-all end-all set up. Just doing it live in front of my amp works well for me for the same reason that I turn my reverb off and doing use any stompboxes for stuff like this. I realize it doesn't do anything for the placebo effect, but I trust my ears. Another confirmation that it isn't a placebo effect is that many people can do this test and come up with similar conclusions. If one person says "ceramics are crap because they're boomy and muddy and have no highs" and another says "they're bright, abrasive and nasty", then it doesn't confirm anything. If they all say the same thing, then they're probably hearing something in there. I didn't read anything about dielectric characteristics prior to doing my tests, and I found that my findings were consistent with many (though not all) findings that I read about from other people.

I find it to be a matter of nuance for most capacitors, except the ceramic disks. I can understand why they are used in high frequency applications because they are crazy efficient with those highs, but the lows end up spongy. I'm not going to tell someone they need to hear something just because I hear it, but I feel 100% sure that it is there and that I'm not imagining it. If you're curious to try it again, I'd say A/B ceramic with your metalized polyester caps - those two should be night and day difference.

[RedHouse]

I think that honk is the best part of a tone control! But you only get that when it's on zero anyway...

Yeah, many people do, specially those who chase the old PAF, late 50's Les Paul tones.

Honk is more of a bandpass response, has some "Q" to get that nasal tone, if it's not right (usually because of the instrument/wood) it sounds ugly, they might as well use a 535Q and adjusting the Q ctrl down a bit.

Anyway it works well for blues but beyond that it gets in the way. Of course everyone is different here but as for me, most of my customers are not chasing old LP tone's, they want more flexible instruments for much broader range/coverage in their instruments and the honk gets in the way.

I don't wire any guitars up using 50s wiring, but...

I tend to use the 50's tone-cap connection, the difference is noticable when you roll off the volume control. When connected "modern" style the bass (lack-o-treble) changes more when the vol ctrl is changed (which I don't like personally). When the tone-cap conection is made to the wiper of the volume pot the tone stays as you have it set when you roll the volume down. Of course 70% of guitar players don't use the volume control for anything else but on-off switch, or fade-in/fade-out ctrl, or clean-dirty knob, so many don't really care (and really cannot tell either way).

[David Schwab]

Yeah, many people do, specially those who chase the old PAF, late 50's Les Paul tones.

Honk is more of a bandpass response, has some "Q" to get that nasal tone, if it's not right (usually because of the instrument/wood) it sounds ugly, they might as well use a 535Q and adjusting the Q ctrl down a bit.

Anyway it works well for blues but beyond that it gets in the way. Of course everyone is different here but as for me, most of my customers are not chasing old LP tone's, they want more flexible instruments for much broader range/coverage in their instruments and the honk gets in the way.



I tend to use the 50's tone-cap connection, the difference is noticable when you roll off the volume control. When connected "modern" style the bass (lack-o-treble) changes more when the vol ctrl is changed (which I don't like personally). When the tone-cap conection is made to the wiper of the volume pot the tone stays as you have it set when you roll the volume down. Of course 70% of guitar players don't use the volume control for anything else but on-off switch, or fade-in/fade-out ctrl, or clean-dirty knob, so many don't really care (and really cannot tell either way).

Well when the tone is off you have lowered the resonant peak of the pickups, as well as remove the top end, and you get this resonant boost. I like that. It's like a wah cocked back a bit. It has a very vocal tone.

Most of my guitars have one volume control. When I have two volume guitars, I wire them up like a Ric/Jazz bass so I can shut a pickup off and not kill the other one. I also use master tone controls, even when I had a Les Paul. For me, I use the tone control more as an effect than to reduce treble. I might turn it down partway to cut the highs, but usually its on 10 or all the way off for that Big Muff/Woman tone.

Now my current go-to guitar, which is a cheapo FirstAct Garagemaster with some of my pickups, has a tone control that doesn't honk at all, and I hate it! I even changed the cap to a smaller value and it didn't help. The control is that guitar are part of an active circuit with built in distortion, even though it also works passively.

But yeah, on bass my volume is for muting when I'm not playing. On guitar I will use the volume to control overdrive.

[Possum]

I wish David would mention in these threads whether he is talking bass guitars or guitars, maybe tone caps are more discernible in guitars because of the much higher frequencies than basses. On "0" caps have a very noticeable effect in guitars. Now, I'm talking of my own experience mainly with paper in oil caps of the same value, ceramics I don't use and can't comment on except generally they are just too brittle and shrill sounding. You don't need to go to the trouble of setting up a rotary switch, just unsolder one end of your existing tone cap, then get some some alligator jumper leads from Radio Shack and clip in any cap you want to try one by one. It makes it real fast to listen to differences. Six months ago I listened to Russian NOS military pio caps, Jensen copper foil pios, NOS Sprague bumble bee pios, and some Cornell Dubilier "greenies" that are some kind of film I think. They all dramatically sounded different. The Jensen copper foil sounded really loud in comparison to the others, real round sounding but with lots of treble detail. The Russians were all very very nice, focused and great because they are very cheap on Ebay. The CD's were really nice but had a kind of Fender quack to them and got away from the paper in oil kind of roundish tone. I did this test on a bridge pickup. Later I bought a .015uf Jensen copper foil for the neck pickup and found it was too round sounding and wasn't fun to play, so I love them in bridge but not neck position. The Russians I use in all my neck pickups, the Bees are general all round use, kind of restrained sounding, they are selling on Ebay now for stupid prices and personally I don't think they are worth it.

As far as 50's wiring goes, its just a small change in wiring the tone cap, but to me 50's wiring is getting every detail of the harness copied from the real deal methods used. I had a hard time finding out how the switches were wired, Dr. Vintage's website has an excellent couple of photos of vintage switch wiring and more. All those details help get you in the vintage tone pocket and is important if thats what you're shooting for. I have only used the 50's tone cap wiring so can't comment on what change it makes from modern wiring, but from customers that I urge to wire their caps that way they tell me it gives you more clarity when the volume pot is rolled back, which is also generally what I've read in forum posts about it.

[David Schwab]

I'm talking about tone caps in guitars.

I'd still love to hear you, or someone else, post sound samples of all these caps that sound "dramatically" different. Because that hasn't been my experience.

A rotary switch is faster because you have zero time delay between listening to each cap. This is the point I'm trying to make; if you play, and then stop and switch caps with an alligator clip, you have already forgotten exactly what you heard. You might think you remember, but the brain doesn't always work that way. And people will convince themselves they are hearing something, or the playing conditions have changed. Proof of that is the "telephone" game where people have to relay what they were just told a few seconds prior. The message always gets morphed into something else.

And you can't A/B caps with alligator clips either. It's too slow. With a rotary switch you can switch back and forth as fast as you can turn the switch.

This is also a reason why it's important to make audio recordings of all this stuff. because you will find that while you perceive something a certain way, you will often come back and listen to the recoding and be surprised by it.

So why no one wants to test out caps this way is beyond me. If you want to pick out the cap you like best, its really the way to do it. Otherwise you might hear what you want to hear. That's human nature, and why blind tests are done.

And IMO if you are saying you hear all these changes when the tone pot in on 10, I say that's nonsense. But you are free to prove me wrong.

[RedHouse]

...why no one wants to test out caps this way is beyond me...

Hey Now!

...This is also a reason why it's important to make audio recordings of all this stuff...

I do agree and find it helpful myself but can't see posting them on the internet or using them as public examples. One has to watch out for brining a whole new bunch of non-essential variables that can skew the use of the recording as a tone example.

Ie; what amp, what mic, what mic-pre, what EQ, what recording device, all this can skew the listening-back part of judging stuff.

I feel it's better to do live A/B testing with the exact guitar the customer uses and is why I built those lexan control cavity covers, I have them for several guitars, some with rotary switches for testing more types/values at once. I use them kinda like a Brannock device for guitars.

...But you are free to prove me wrong...

With all due respect, there's a bit too much of this attitude going on around here these days. We all need to take things down a notch on the throw-down thing. and yes, I do see the smiley-face "just kidding" thing there, but it's something I've been wanting to say lately.
(I include myself in this notion BTW)

[Steve Conner]

Well, I don't believe anyone could actually hear any major difference between those different tone caps in a blind test.

But that doesn't mean it's wrong to put a Jensen copper-foil-in-oil capacitor in your guitar and feel good about it.

[RedHouse]

Well, I don't believe anyone could actually hear any major difference between those different tone caps in a blind test.

But that doesn't mean it's wrong to put a Jensen copper-foil-in-oil capacitor in your guitar and feel good about it.

For me it's more about the response, not so much the tone.

For instance when I was experimenting with the paper-n-oil caps, at first I liked the way they worked, but quickly noticed most of them has a weird roll-off, where they acted like any other cap for the first 2/3 of turning down the ctrl, then that last 1/3 was like BAM into the mud. I guess "less linear" might be a term to use.

I say this in relation to testing with my 2004 R9 (which is a Les Paul in case you aren't aware), but in my Strat's/Tele's I find this effect downright annoying because there seems to be less "area" to work in, like 1/2 the way down before there's too much cap in there. (P&O type, 250K pot)

All the modern caps mylar/polyester and polypropylene types have a more linear turn-down and most don't make that "honk" thing happen, but a few have more "mud" than others at the bottom of the ctrl (pot=zero Ohms) enough so that you would not want the ctrl down all the way. I found that true with the Gibson BumbleBee reissues, and not true with 716P and Sozo caps.

[Mike Sulzer]

For me it's more about the response, not so much the tone.

For instance when I was experimenting with the paper-n-oil caps, at first I liked the way they worked, but quickly noticed most of them has a weird roll-off, where they acted like any other cap for the first 2/3 of turning down the ctrl, then that last 1/3 was like BAM into the mud. I guess "less linear" might be a term to use.

I say this in relation to testing with my 2004 R9 (which is a Les Paul in case you aren't aware), but in my Strat's/Tele's I find this effect downright annoying because there seems to be less "area" to work in, like 1/2 the way down before there's too much cap in there. (P&O type, 250K pot)

Those are good observations, Brad. The explanation is that you are not hearing the cap for the first 2/3 of turning down because its impedance is large compared to that of the the C at relevant frequencies. That is true for any C over some range of values. And the reason that it takes less rotation to get to this point with a 250K pot is that you really do get to the critical resistance with less rotation because the value of the pot is smaller.

The guitar tone control is about resistive loading of a resonant circuit, until you get down most of the way and change the frequency with the C.

[imaradiostar]

Well, I don't believe anyone could actually hear any major difference between those different tone caps in a blind test.

But that doesn't mean it's wrong to put a Jensen copper-foil-in-oil capacitor in your guitar and feel good about it.

Agree. If you're hearing a difference there has to be a measurable component causing the change- difference in value or ESR or something!

jamie

[RedHouse]

...The explanation is that you are not hearing the cap for the first 2/3 of turning down because...

Bzzzzzt! nope, wrong.
(gets shaving cream sprayed in face)

You can hear (or, I should say "many of us can hear") the cap even when turning the knob one number's worth (ie; 10-9), but if your explanation pleases you, far be it from me to be a buzz-kill, rock on.

[RedHouse]

...there has to be a measurable component causing the change...

Your ear is the measure, isn't it?

[jmaf]

Your ear is the measure, isn't it?

Depends on whether you are discussing engineering or psychology.