Magnets/ best, worst etc..

[CRU JONES]

I think some of these winders, give free rewinds for certain old Pickups.
They get to play with the P/Us for a while in return!
T

They won't trust me. They know I use a CNC and I have wound too many pickups for "pointy guitar" guys

[Possum]

Yes, I restore PAF's for FREE. But they have to have the original wire on them and not be someone's bad rewind job, those I charge for. I've restored piles of PAF's now and get several every couple of months, in fact a high end vintage dealer sales guy in the UK buys dead ones for me to restore for his guitars, modern wire really perks old PAF's up into something amazing if they are authentically rewound.
By softer A5 I mean not real bright and edgy, degausses easily. The short magnet in the '61 here is softer sounding than the short Mojo A5's I tried out. The Mojo's aren't bad but not great either. I think the magnet sellers are offering UO magnets because makers are asking for them last five years or so now. Five years ago or whenever I found that article none of the manufacturers heard of them, and their response to me was like they thought I was an idiot to ask for non-oriented A5 ;-) its kinda like asking for a hot bowl of ice cream to them. Whatever. I went back and dug out my original AllStar rough cast mags, the first ones they ever did that I helped them do, I didn't think I'd ever find a use for them but the A2 does wonderful things in a neck prototype I'm working on, super nice dry clear sound. Finally.
Jon, check this out:
My Last PAF (CLONE) "SHOOT-OUT" - My Les Paul Forums
I posted a comment at the end of the thread about things I thought weren't right about what they were doing, you and I were the only machine winders in the group, except the Shaw and "early patent" that wasn't identified. See what you think.....

[bob]

I think im on to something but would like input from those in the know. I tend to forget things i change because they seem so trivial but, I changed my winders speed. I sped it up more than normal for these last pickups. I think theres a tension issue going on. Due to the faster speed the tension in the middle is looser and more spongy, not bad but you can see it if you look from the ends down the middle. Looser tension in the middle, will that cause a great difference in tone and output??

[big_teee]

I think im on to something but would like input from those in the know. I tend to forget things i change because they seem so trivial but, I changed my winders speed. I sped it up more than normal for these last pickups. I think theres a tension issue going on. Due to the faster speed the tension in the middle is looser and more spongy, not bad but you can see it if you look from the ends down the middle. Looser tension in the middle, will that cause a great difference in tone and output??

The faster you go the harder it is to control tension.
At least it is if you are applying tension by hand.
Not sure what the tone results will be.
Maybe less mids and Bass, Not Sure?
T

[bob]

Thanks Big_Tee I am winding another this evening slower and more even tension and will see as well. I do know the pickups wound with the faster speed have such problems as very fast decay as in not much sustain, under some distortion from very mild to all out they have, well I cant describe it what they do, not pleasing so to speak, not very smooth is the best way to say it. Any ideas anyone?

[big_teee]

Thanks Big_Tee I am winding another this evening slower and more even tension and will see as well. I do know the pickups wound with the faster speed have such problems as very fast decay as in not much sustain, under some distortion from very mild to all out they have, well I cant describe it what they do, not pleasing so to speak, not very smooth is the best way to say it. Any ideas anyone?

I've always been a real tight winder.
My goal now a days is to keep good tension without wire breakage, and without bobbin flaring.
If You have excessive flaring you need to narrow the guide stops, and back off on tension.
Loose wire, would be too little tension, and possible stops, too wide.
Also looser wire can be microphonic without potting.
Good Luck,
T

[bob]

Oh they are def microphonic. Seems i remember they werent before. Hmmm I think I know what I need to do. Thanks again

[FunkyKikuchiyo]

I think im on to something but would like input from those in the know. I tend to forget things i change because they seem so trivial but, I changed my winders speed. I sped it up more than normal for these last pickups. I think theres a tension issue going on. Due to the faster speed the tension in the middle is looser and more spongy, not bad but you can see it if you look from the ends down the middle. Looser tension in the middle, will that cause a great difference in tone and output??

Tensioning definitely makes a difference. The difference to MY ears sounds a bit like what loudspeakers do when the voice coils get all broken in.

Changing your winding speed can also change your traverse speed, unless your traverse is directly linked to the winder, which it probably isn't unless you have a pretty fancy set up.

I have a speed limiter on my winder for this reason. Without a consistent speed, I can't make a consistent product because so much changes.

[bob]

Well happy to say it was tension all along. I slowed the machine down and applied less tension. With the machine going slower there wasn't hardly any bounce which made it possible to ease up on the tension. I now have a great sounding pickup. In my opinion it still could sustain more but I am wondering if that isn't attributed to the crappy guitar I'm using. There was also another thing I noticed, when I was winding with a lot of tension the single pickup got really bright and harsh but when played with the middle pickup the tone got very dark. Tension is key here. It now sounds good by itself and in the between positions. Thanks again for everyones help!

[Bill M]

Yes, I restore PAF's for FREE. But they have to have the original wire on them and not be someone's bad rewind job, those I charge for. I've restored piles of PAF's now and get several every couple of months, in fact a high end vintage dealer sales guy in the UK buys dead ones for me to restore for his guitars, modern wire really perks old PAF's up into something amazing if they are authentically rewound.
By softer A5 I mean not real bright and edgy, degausses easily. The short magnet in the '61 here is softer sounding than the short Mojo A5's I tried out. The Mojo's aren't bad but not great either. I think the magnet sellers are offering UO magnets because makers are asking for them last five years or so now. Five years ago or whenever I found that article none of the manufacturers heard of them, and their response to me was like they thought I was an idiot to ask for non-oriented A5 ;-) its kinda like asking for a hot bowl of ice cream to them. Whatever. I went back and dug out my original AllStar rough cast mags, the first ones they ever did that I helped them do, I didn't think I'd ever find a use for them but the A2 does wonderful things in a neck prototype I'm working on, super nice dry clear sound. Finally.
Jon, check this out:
My Last PAF (CLONE) "SHOOT-OUT" - My Les Paul Forums
I posted a comment at the end of the thread about things I thought weren't right about what they were doing, you and I were the only machine winders in the group, except the Shaw and "early patent" that wasn't identified. See what you think.....

Here you go again Dave, down grading other winders again. You really should stop doing it, refering to your link to the MLP. I cann't speak for the other winders, but all of my humbuckers are machine wound to the correct tpl's, so yours and the others you mention are not the only ones. If, in your mind, my pickups don't qualify as PAF's, then neither do yours.

[ReWind]

My Last PAF (CLONE) "SHOOT-OUT" - My Les Paul Forums
I posted a comment at the end of the thread about things I thought weren't right about what they were doing, you and I were the only machine winders in the group, except the Shaw and "early patent" that wasn't identified. See what you think.....

I'm sorry to say you're every bit as wrong about that now as you were when you were first corrected on that comment, Dave. You and Jon are NOT the only machine winders in that poll. I asked you then to please pay a little more consideration to your comments as others may take your word as gospel, when in fact you are speaking ignorantly on something you have zero experience with (my pickups). I ask you again to please not make assumptions about my methods and materials and state them as fact. The truth is, you've very wrong in your assumptions.

Thank you.

[big_teee]

IMO they all would have sounded better with More Gain!

B_T

[Possum]

I stand corrected ;-) Apologies, I didn't know anyone else was doing automated winding, I hope you pointed that out. If I had posted that Abraham Lincoln had a beard it would have pissed someone off with the same childish name calling that I never engage in myself.

I was just pointing out that the shootout wasn't really a PAF shootout, it was only a "humbucker approval poll with low volume clips." There was only one real PAF set there and it didn't score highest, it should have been number one if authenticity had any weight, but real PAF's never score highest in shootouts because general players don't like what they actually are, nor even know what they sound like. I did a blind audio clip test on the MLP several years ago and included a real PAF without telling anyone, it scored in the lower third and only Sgt. Pepper outed me for putting the real PAF in there, because he works with them for many years.

The shootout was a good attempt, but here's where my objection is. The clips were low volume, yes this does tell you alot about the character of the pickup in some ways. For a couple years with my PAF prototypes I did all my test recordings that way, low volume and very clean. The problem I ran into is that what sounded really sweet at low volume, turned to mud once I turned up to get some grit on the amp. The darkest pickups sounded best at low volume. This discovery caused me to start all the work over again which wasn't a happy thing to confront. I did see some say they wished they had heard some distortion clips and I think it would have rearranged the final list if that had been added. But maybe not; dark humbuckers are a truly modern preference.

Shootouts are in the end kind of pointless and really difficult to do objectively and fairly. I'd like to see a shootout where a vintage set of good sounding real PAF's are loaned to the few obsessed with accurate replication, to be blueprinted and studied and played, then passed onto the next one doing the same things. Then some professioinal studio musician would do samples at low volume clean and then at medium clean distortion say like Bloomfield, then one at more distortion like Page on a cranked vintage Marshall. Also, volume pot slow turn up and full tone control turned downed in each clip as well. All done in one guitar only, first with the real PAF set, then the clones. Don't allow any hand wounds, no StewMac kits. Assemble a panel of judge professional musicians who have owned or own real vintage Les Pauls and who have real PAF's in modern Les Pauls, and then loan each of the clone sets to each judge and the real PAF set as well. Or maybe put the clones in one guitar and pass it around to the judges so that you don't get a bunch of different wiring harnesses changing results. It could get really complex trying to rule out variables that could destroy the possibility of accurate comparisons. We dont even know what the harness in the shootout on the MLP was, that could really swing things around one way or the other too. I did a bunch of tests last weekend on what wiring cable does to pickups' resonant peak, modern wire and vintage and the results were astonishing.

[big_teee]

I stand corrected ;-) Apologies, I didn't know anyone else was doing automated winding, I hope you pointed that out. If I had posted that Abraham Lincoln had a beard it would have pissed someone off with the same childish name calling that I never engage in myself.

I was just pointing out that the shootout wasn't really a PAF shootout, it was only a "humbucker approval poll with low volume clips." There was only one real PAF set there and it didn't score highest, it should have been number one if authenticity had any weight, but real PAF's never score highest in shootouts because general players don't like what they actually are, nor even know what they sound like. I did a blind audio clip test on the MLP several years ago and included a real PAF without telling anyone, it scored in the lower third and only Sgt. Pepper outed me for putting the real PAF in there, because he works with them for many years.

The shootout was a good attempt, but here's where my objection is. The clips were low volume, yes this does tell you alot about the character of the pickup in some ways. For a couple years with my PAF prototypes I did all my test recordings that way, low volume and very clean. The problem I ran into is that what sounded really sweet at low volume, turned to mud once I turned up to get some grit on the amp. The darkest pickups sounded best at low volume. This discovery caused me to start all the work over again which wasn't a happy thing to confront. I did see some say they wished they had heard some distortion clips and I think it would have rearranged the final list if that had been added. But maybe not; dark humbuckers are a truly modern preference.

Shootouts are in the end kind of pointless and really difficult to do objectively and fairly. I'd like to see a shootout where a vintage set of good sounding real PAF's are loaned to the few obsessed with accurate replication, to be blueprinted and studied and played, then passed onto the next one doing the same things. Then some professioinal studio musician would do samples at low volume clean and then at medium clean distortion say like Bloomfield, then one at more distortion like Page on a cranked vintage Marshall. Also, volume pot slow turn up and full tone control turned downed in each clip as well. All done in one guitar only, first with the real PAF set, then the clones. Don't allow any hand wounds, no StewMac kits. Assemble a panel of judge professional musicians who have owned or own real vintage Les Pauls and who have real PAF's in modern Les Pauls, and then loan each of the clone sets to each judge and the real PAF set as well. Or maybe put the clones in one guitar and pass it around to the judges so that you don't get a bunch of different wiring harnesses changing results. It could get really complex trying to rule out variables that could destroy the possibility of accurate comparisons. We dont even know what the harness in the shootout on the MLP was, that could really swing things around one way or the other too. I did a bunch of tests last weekend on what wiring cable does to pickups' resonant peak, modern wire and vintage and the results were astonishing.

The test just proved to me that Humbuckers are just that humbuckers.
I like low wound neck Humbuckers, but never did care for a low wound Bridge.
To each his own.
All you guys make decent Pickups.

[Possum]

PAF's are vastly different design than modern buckers, I am a die hard humbucker hater, and always have been, but PAF's are in a different league altogether and tonally have more in common with P90's than anything, in fact they share many of the same parts, same number of winds, same magnets, pole keepers, pole screws and magnet wire. Its their single coil vibe that attracted me....