Real NOS PAF era plain enamel wire....

[Stratz]

Stratz why the attitude? Has your Dad had vintage plain enamel wire examined in a magnet wire manufacturer's own lab? I DID. 14 examples ranging from 1938 up to late 70's. Even those guys discovered things from the lab results they didn't know about (Elektrisola). Old wire looks like new wire but trust me it isn't.

Why the attitude you ask? Below is one example why I am not pleased with your "attitude"

Well you're wrong there, I could your Dad a ton of stuff about VINTAGE wire that he doesn't know about. Old timers weren't aware of things that have pretty radically changed since their days.

You can call it an "attitude" if you like but I call it protecting the character of an extremely intelligent man who also happens to be my Father. You spewed off without any idea of his credentials.

Has your Dad had vintage plain enamel wire examined in a magnet wire manufacturer's own lab?

I seriously doubt it. Since metallurgy and chemistry are his fields of expertise he'd simply do it himself.

His research was critical in the development of the Lockheed F-117, F-22 Raptor along with both the Viking I and II projects just to mention a few of his more notable accomplishments.

With that said, I will guarantee that "you" couldn't tell him a thing about vintage PE (or any other wire, coating or alloy) that he doesn't already know. I also suspect you would most likely be enlightened and probably quite embarrassed if you sat down with him and tried to discuss what "you know" (or should I say, what you gleaned from the work of others) about something as simple as PE magnet wire.

Rob.

[rjb]

If you listen to audio of vintage Les Pauls when they were just about brand new the pickups can be extremely bright, see video below.

The Tielman Brothers Rollin' Rock live 1960 - YouTube

I need to score me some NOS sneakers (see video 2:25). I'm sure they would improve my tone immensely.

[Ward]

I thought that vid was excellent, except for the sound quality of course and somebody get that bass player plugged in. A bit cheesy with the movements but overall I thought it was pretty entertaining. The Gibsons being clean like that, well the volume they would have played at would help but the guitars were very clean, almost a tad lifeless but what did they know back then

[SonnyW]

If you listen to audio of vintage Les Pauls when they were just about brand new the pickups can be extremely bright, see video below.

The Tielman Brothers Rollin' Rock live 1960 - YouTube

They were probably even brighter when you consider in those days they were probably playing with the heavier black diamond strings, maybe even flatwounds. Especially for that sneaker barre cord stuff.

[Ward]

Flat wound pure nickel brighter than wound round nickel plated

[SonnyW]

Flat wound pure nickel brighter than wound round nickel plated

Oh well. Just a thought.

[Ward]

Oh well. Just a thought.

Full moon

[big_teee]

They were probably even brighter when you consider in those days they were probably playing with the heavier black diamond strings, maybe even flatwounds. Especially for that sneaker barre cord stuff.

Black diamond strings.
I think that is what my dad played years ago.
If I remember right they would rust while you were putting them on.
T

[SonnyW]

Black diamond strings.
I think that is what my dad played years ago.
If I remember right they would rust while you were putting them on.
T

The plain strings sure did. I think those were about the most popular strings for electrics back in the 50's, at least among my uncles and their friends. They mostly played big old archtops. And I remember reading in BB King's book he said the same thing. Most of the ones I remember were flatwound too.

[Possum]

Yeah vintage PE was "simple." I mean it LOOKS the same as it does now, LOL... I meant no disrespect to your Dad, if he thinks old wire is no different than it is now, well throw the stuff in the garbage ;-) I have 6 pages of data that says different, done by the best magnet wire company in the business in their high tech lab. I don't have a lab handy in my shop, but I'm the one that asked the questions on what I wanted them to check, I directed the process, and they gave me more than I was expecting, a wonderful gift that we both learned interesting things from. I'll give you another example of an old timer not knowing much despite being directly involved in history. Seth Lover. There are many interviews with him online and in books. Seymour Duncan repeatedly asked him what kind of metal he used in the magnetic circuit. His answer was always "soft iron." Soft iron is not an alloy name and the term can mean almost anything. Duncan pushed him on it in one interview and Seth admitted he just went to the stock room and got whatever steel they had on hand. Despite being the inventor of that particular design (he didn't invent humbucking...) he had no idea what kind of alloys were used in it. The guy I talked to who was there also had no idea either. Does that make them dumb? No, they just worked someplace and used what the company bought. There's no attitude in that, its just a proven fact. The materials were all product of the technologies of the times. Those technologies are largely GONE. Steel isn't made in open hearth Bessemer furnaces since 1968, the copper in magnet wire is of superior purity than what they were doing, as well as all the other differences the lab found.

Yeah full moon! Offenses taken where none was intended, never fails...... 'scuse me while I kiss the sky ;-)
BTW, if you ever do find a NOS vintage speaker expect to pay a very hefty price for it, especially Jensens or Celestions. No one has equalled what they made in those days.

[Ward]

I've got a quad of 1970 014 Celestion greenies, later than what you're talkin about but still, they are forkin great speaks.

[SonnyW]

Despite being the inventor of that particular design (he didn't invent humbucking...)

Just a comment, but even Gibson now admits that A.F. Knoblaugh's pickup patent for Baldwin came 21 years earlier than Seth's. And hum bucking was used in other applications before that.

The History of the Pickup

[Ward]

Just a comment, but even Gibson now admits that A.F. Knoblaugh's pickup patent for Baldwin came 21 years earlier than Seth's. And hum bucking was used in other applications before that.

The History of the Pickup

With a name like that it's no wonder no one said anything

[enkindler]

Thanks Ward! The interesting thing to me about vintage PE is there are indicators in the lab results that point to it being brighter than modern wire, but then there are indicators that its darker sounding than modern wire. Will it balance out and be nothing special or will it swing in one direction or the other? If you listen to audio of vintage Les Pauls when they were just about brand new the pickups can be extremely bright, see video below. Then with vintage Les Pauls that exist now there are factors that are dumbing down the treble in the harness. Aged braided shield wire in experiments I did, really clamps down on treble with just a short length of it. Probably the cloth deteriorating or absorbing moisture, hard to say, but modern braided wire is way brighter. My vintage PAF's if I unhook the original leads on them have a very high resonant peak, re-attaching the old leads drops the peak by a full 1 khz.

The Tielman Brothers Rollin' Rock live 1960 - YouTube

I've been thinking about this and I have a question.

When you push back the cotten was the wire really tarnished?

The reason I ask is that at room temp cupric oxide is a semi conductor and has a dielectric value greater than 18 vs cotten and wax which are below 3. I haven't done the math to see what this would do but it is a "maybe".

Also was the resonant peak in the audio spectrum? And you didn't have any of the extra wire coiled right?

I'll be intrested to find out what you discover with your sweet score but there is another option you forgot in yoru first post. The new and the vintage could sound diffrent but not better or worse than the other

We had some guy try to sell us speaker cables for for 5 figures at a movie audio edit suite at a job I had in the late 90's. They had some potted super duper mystery boxes in the center. Pretty much the entire engineering department was in there for an afternoon trying to decide which was better...The final decision was that it was diffrent but not better or worse. Of course seeing as our stock "speaker cable" was romex we didn't buy the fancy ones.

I really never had considered that as an option before for some reason.

The video is great, do you know what effect having your guitar player stand on your double bass while you play it lying on your back has on tone.

[SonnyW]

The video is great, do you know what effect having your guitar player stand on your double bass while you play it lying on your back has on tone.

Don't know what effect it would have on the tone of the double bass, but if that bass player was doing any singing it might make him sound like Frankie Valli