Question about Insulation of wire

[David Schwab]

I did not quote you, I wasn't addressing you, I wasn't belittling you, yet you just HAD TO (as you always do) question someone else's opinion.

Excuse me? You responded to my post with your post #10 above. You quoted me in that too. Scroll up and look.

I gave my opinion. That's what public forums are for. If you want to make a statement that wire sounds different, give some evidence to support it. No one has done that yet.

You said;

I for one would never use poly coated wire in place of Formvar or Plain Enamel. From my experience they do sound different.

That's a bit strong, isn't it. Lots of great pickups were and are made with poly. People come here to learn stuff, so when someone makes a statement like that, I want to show another side so we don't get this turned into dogma. So I asked you a question about it, because almost no one uses single build Formvar. Why would they? What would the benefits be? When you hear of Formvar being used it's generally heavy build. And the reason why it's common is Formvar is a tough insulation, and it was used for motors and transformers.

So unless you can point out a reason why one insulation would sound different from another when they are the same thickness, then it sounds more like confirmation bias to me.

This is not a religion, and there is science behind it.

Put enough heat to PE and you can get somewhat of a solder joint too.... aint good for it though.

Why is it not good for it? Don't just make a statement, back it up. Copper melts at 1,984° F. What's 700° going to do?

Sorry but you don't seem to be saying things based on fact.

[sn6111]

I read all messages and it's very interested.
I believe that the thickness of the insulation has different tone result but i don't know how big is this different.
I will found it soon.
I think that the Plain Enamel wire it's not the same old PE.
Maybe this is a business marketing - trick but i'm sure this PE which it's sold now it's not the same with old PE.
I spoke with Elektrisola and i asked them if i could buy heavy formwar and PE wire in Europe.
They told me that the heavy formwar wire in Europe is the P155 G2 and the PE isn't made in Europe. Only in US and if i could buy PE the price is € 250/ Kg without the copper price. Today is € 6.57 / Kg
I made one Strat Bridge Pickup with Brocotts.co.uk wire 0.063mm (42AWG) single built:

Resistance: 6.52 kΩ
Inductance in Series at 1kHz: 2.380
Turns:8800
Magnets: Alnico 5
Tension: Medium
and the result is: Very good attack and sustain, Very good dynamics, good bass response with cut off in high frequencies (warm tone) and good balance between bass and mid frequencies. No wax Potted

I will make and other tests with Elektrisola Wire in the few days and i will post them for conversation.

[Joe Gwinn]

Measuring the per-foot capacitance of magnet wire insulation

One can indirectly measure the average thickness of insulation on magnet wire by measuring capacitance of a ten-foot length immersed in a tub of salt water.

Take ten feet (or any other convenient length) of wire, strip both ends and solder them to a lead wire. Crumple the wire up into a bundle. Fill a suitable metal cup (like a stainless steel measuring cup) with a saturated solution of ordinary salt in water. Connect the cup to one terminal of an Extech 380193 LCR meter, and the lead wire to the other terminal. Set Extech to 1 KHz, PAR, Capacitance. Put bundle of wire into the salt water, being careful not to immerse the soldered junction (which would short the wire-insulation capacitor out), and let the Extech stabilize. Record capacitance and parallel AC resistance. If the resistance is too low, the salt water is shorting to the soldered connection between magnet wire and lead wire.

The capacitance per foot will vary with the inverse of insulation thickness and directly with insulation dielectric constant. This is captured in the formula for the capacitance of a parallel-plate capacitor.

Parallel Plate Capacitor

Different kinds of insulation (PE, Formvar, et al) have somewhat different dielectric constants.


Addendum: A drop of hand dishwashing detergent in the salt water may be helpful, to ensure complete wetting of the wire.

[Joe Gwinn]

Do dielectrics have their own sounds?

The debate on the sound of plain enamel versus the sound of formvar versus the sound of <varnish> reminds me of the debate on the sounds of various capacitor dielectrics (mylar, oiled paper, et cet). There was a big thread on that, the thread where how to make adequate tests was discussed. Once capacitances were matched and double-blind tests used, did any acoustic differences remain? One would expect that the same answer would apply to the various kinds of varnish used to insulate magnet wire.

[copperheadroads]

I for one would never use poly coated wire in place of Formvar or Plain Enamel. From my experience they do sound different.

I think PE & poly sound different ,But HF & heavy build poly sound quite similar (I know I'm not alone here ) & not enough difference in tone to pay the extra $$$ the HF ,I will keep my 3 spools of HF for historic correct winds
IMO you come on a little strong saying poly is "lifeless" (as you said in other threads) Poly coated wire is the bread & butter for many winders & I bet I could make a set using poly wire that rivals your formvar wire strat pups .........
I have tried to solder PE wire without sanding & no continuity ,Formvar however solders without removing /sanding insulation .but I do recommend sanding a little first (It's double build wire) just to keep too much heat from getting to the wire

[Possum]

Joe, when I'm immersed in salt water is it ok to add a little bubble bath soap in there too, can I use warm water? Ten feet, do you mean I need to get five pickup makers into a tub of salt water or was that wire measurement? I don't think my Extech floats, do I need a waterproof housing? Did I read your post right???? I don't think my tub is big enough to get five people in it but I'll give it a try to get them ten feets in there ;-)
Sorry,,,,,,couldn't resist.......

[Mike Sulzer]

Nice test. Might it be more accurate to use the equation for a cylindrical capacitor ? (Cylindrical Capacitor)

One can indirectly measure the average thickness of insulation on magnet wire by measuring capacitance of a ten-foot length immersed in a tub of salt water.......

[Mike Sulzer]

Reliable measuring tests demonstrating small differences are very difficult to do, as you know. I like to maintain a small doubt until differences can be measured and explained in terms of E&M theory.

The debate on the sound of plain enamel versus the sound of formvar versus the sound of <varnish> reminds me of the debate on the sounds of various capacitor dielectrics (mylar, oiled paper, et cet). There was a big thread on that, the thread where how to make adequate tests was discussed. Once capacitances were matched and double-blind tests used, did any acoustic differences remain? One would expect that the same answer would apply to the various kinds of varnish used to insulate magnet wire.

[Possum]

Unfortunately there is no published information on the dielectric rating of plain enamel insulation.

[Joe Gwinn]

Nice test. Might it be more accurate to use the equation for a cylindrical capacitor ? (Cylindrical Capacitor)

True enough, but I suspect that experimental difficulties and manufacturing variation will dominate in practice.

Nor are we guaranteed that the conductor is centered in the insulation layer. Chances are there is some decenter.

[David Schwab]

IMO you come on a little strong saying poly is "lifeless" (as you said in other threads) Poly coated wire is the bread & butter for many winders & I bet I could make a set using poly wire that rivals your formvar wire strat pups .........

Exactly. If you can't wind a great sounding pickup using any of the available wires, then something is wrong IMO. Saying that only one type of wire makes a good sounding pickup is working on the assumption that there is only one type of tone that sounds good. Using the vintage type wires assumes that the winder is trying to get a "vintage" tone, and I say most people don't even know what that is. For example, PAFs are much brighter than many people expect, who have this wrong view that they are dark sounding pickups. You read threads (some right here) where players are complaining that their Les Paul is too bright! Judging from all the Rangmasters that players used to use, that doesn't seem to be an issue with LPs.

I bet in a double blind test most people either wouldn't be able to pick one insulation from the other, or wouldn't have a strong preference either way.

That's my take on it anyway.

[Joe Gwinn]

Unfortunately there is no published information on the dielectric rating of plain enamel insulation.

Of course the dielectric constants are known, and manget-wire makers will have such data. Because PE is old and little used these days, the data is probably buried in old handbooks.

Google is your friend. Search string was "formvar magnet dielectric constant" (without the quotes). Probably don't need the "magnet" with formvar, which I used because the word is unique. The word oleoresin is also almost unique (not all oleoresins make for good varnish).

Dielectric

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...SRL3oQ&cad=rja

[Stratz]

Saying that only one type of wire makes a good sounding pickup is working on the assumption that there is only one type of tone that sounds good.

And stating that two different insulation's "sound the same" is very irresponsible. Especially to someone who may have no experience with building pickups. If they took your opinion as fact they could potentially end up wasting a lot of time, wire and money trying to reproduce a certain tone using the incorrect wire.

IMO you come on a little strong saying poly is "lifeless" (as you said in other threads)

Copper, The "lifeless" comment I made was tongue in cheek in a thread that was not a serious debate. I guess sarcasm is difficult to detect in type as opposed to verbally.
IMO poly has it's place, but it's not a proper substitute for Formvar or Plain Enamel.

[big_teee]

What most of us really like about the Poly?
Is that it Solders so easy, and it is much cheaper.
Most of my customers, (Not the Highest of Rollers) Want a good quality Pickup that is affordable.
Poly Does that.
I still contend that O.D. and Ohms per foot, effect the sound more than what insulation is on the wire.
I like it all.
I have all kinds of wire, but find myself only using the PE, and HFV, for rewinds.
I really like the HPN for Strat Single Coils, and IMO the larger the better.
T

[David Schwab]

And stating that two different insulation's "sound the same" is very irresponsible. Especially to someone who may have no experience with building pickups. If they took your opinion as fact they could potentially end up wasting a lot of time, wire and money trying to reproduce a certain tone using the incorrect wire.

No it's not, because we have no real evidence that it's true. You see beginners on here buying expensive rolls of PE thinking they need that, even though they have never wound a pickup. Where do you think most of that expensive wire will go? In the trash (or hopefully recycled). That's irresponsible. I said try all the different wires and see for yourself. But if you are going to put into someone's head that they sound different, they will sound different.

Copper, The "lifeless" comment I made was tongue in cheek in a thread that was not a serious debate. I guess sarcasm is difficult to detect in type as opposed to verbally.
IMO poly has it's place, but it's not a proper substitute for Formvar or Plain Enamel.

Explain "proper substitute". If you are saying you can't wind a good sounding pickup with poly, that's untrue and very irresponsible. That's putting the wrong idea in beginners' heads.

You can't just make statements and not go into detail. Explain the "proper place" and tone of each wire. Better yet make some real recordings of the same design with different wires. If you haven't actually tried doing that, and just believe that PE and Formvar sound different, and haven't tried making them with poly, then how do you know? We are back to confirmation bias. You believe it, so it must be true.

If you want beginners, or the experienced winders here that don't share this view to take it seriously, give some proof. We can't just take your word for it.