Question about Insulation of wire

[Mike Sulzer]

Good point. Also, as long as the insulation thickness is much less than the diameter of the wire, you can use the first term in the expansion for the natural log in the equation for the cylindrical cap, and you are right back to the equation for the parallel plate capacitor, just noting that it is rolled up instead flat.

By the way, why PAR? I see the "salt water resistor" in series with the C.

True enough, but I suspect that experimental difficulties and manufacturing variation will dominate in practice.

Nor are we guaranteed that the conductor is centered in the insulation layer. Chances are there is some decenter.

[Stratz]

No it's not, because we have no real evidence that it's true. You see beginners on here buying expensive rolls of PE thinking they need that, even though they have never wound a pickup. Where do you think most of that expensive wire will go? In the trash (or hopefully recycled). That's irresponsible. I said try all the different wires and see for yourself. But if you are going to put into someone's head that they sound different, they will sound different.

David. #1) How do you know what type of wire beginners are buying? Do you PM each one and keep a log? There are many more lurkers here than posters so I have no idea where you get this information from.


I'm not capable of putting anything in anybody's head. To believe that I could do such a thing would border on narcissism . Thats more your thing, IMO.

#2)While it is true you did say try all the different wires and see for yourself in post #13 it was only after I posted this in post #7

I would suggest that you try the different types of insulation's and come to your own conclusions.
You will find many opinions here on the differences (or lack of) regarding the tonal quality's of various insulation's.

I for one would never use poly coated wire in place of Formvar or Plain Enamel. From my experience they do sound different.

which is my opinion from over 35 years of winding pickups with various insulation's.

Previously in post #5 you stated "single build Formvar sounds the same as single build poly, and heavy Formvar sounds like heavy poly" and IMO, that is a very irresponsible statement as it did seem to me as it may have even influenced the OP since his reply in post #6 was "

Thank you very much David, You really helping me.

If you are saying you can't wind a good sounding pickup with poly, that's untrue and very irresponsible. That's putting the wrong idea in beginners' heads.

I never stated that a good sounding pickup cant be made with poly nor would I recommend that any beginner spend money on expensive wire as I would imagine that they may have the same results that I had as a beginner. Broken wire, messy winds, etc: and that was under the supervision of an expert.

Better yet make some real recordings of the same design with different wires. If you haven't actually tried doing that, and just believe that PE and Formvar sound different, and haven't tried making them with poly, then how do you know? We are back to confirmation bias. You believe it, so it must be true.

I have plenty of recordings of pickups that I've built. I know what I hear and will state it as an opinion, not a fact as you tend to do.

If you want beginners, or the experienced winders here that don't share this view to take it seriously, give some proof. We can't just take your word for it.

I don't have proof David. You see, that's the difference between you and me (now there's a quotable sentence for you huh). You stated your opinion as fact, I stated my opinion as just that... my opinion, based on experience.

And by the way David, in my opinion, you're a beginner.

Rob.

[StarryNight]

And the moral sn6111 to take away from this thread is that you're just going to have to find out what works for you as a builder. Right from post 2 and 3 you've got some contradictory info. David says heavy build wire usually has a brighter tone, Copper says heavy build wire has a thicker, fatter and smoother tone. Stratz has his own fervered opinions and condidering is likely approaching 60, could be hearing impared for all we know. follow some of the general guidelines, read every post you possibly can, buy what you can afford and be as empirical and critical as your ears and mind will allow. Most importantly have fun and make some people happy. I'm 4 years into it and while making some great pickups IMHO, I'm still learning LOTS. One of my customers has a two page spread in June's GP magazine and he loves my strat pickups. It's when you start getting pros liking your stuff you start getting a hint you're on the right track regardless of the conventions. For example I have this eagle feather that I wave over my pickups BEFORE charging the magnets and I tell you man, I can hear the difference.

[Joe Gwinn]

Good point. Also, as long as the insulation thickness is much less than the diameter of the wire, you can use the first term in the expansion for the natural log in the equation for the cylindrical cap, and you are right back to the equation for the parallel plate capacitor, just noting that it is rolled up instead flat.

Yes. For the finer wire, the parallel plate approximation may fall apart, as the coating thickness does not become thinner in proportion. But finer wire sizes also have more decenter. This will be settled in the lab.

By the way, why PAR? I see the "salt water resistor" in series with the C.

The intent was to detect cases where the wire-insulation capacitor had been inadvertently shorted, typically when the salt water was able to make contact with the copper somehow, like through a flaw in the coating or a damp salt film reaching up to the solder joint. If this has happened, the measured capacitance value is likely to be badly in error, sowing confusion.

Once it has been verified that there are no serious shorts, one can certainly switch to SER to see the effect of the salt water resistor.

[Joe Gwinn]

Double-Blind testing is essential

First of all, I have no set opinion on the sound of dielectrics in wire (or in tone caps), although (based on the results of the tone-cap tests) my suspicion is that any such effect will be small. But such questions can only be settled in the lab.

There was a good thread on how to test tone caps and get solid results:

http://music-electronics-forum.com/t10154/

Postings #8 and #18 (and #27 too) in that thread contain my analysis of what is required to avoid the usual pitfalls, including confirmation bias.

The same methods can be applied to the testing of wire insulation, but with a few changes. There are some issues that come to mind immediately.

First, all test coils would need to be machine wound, to ensure that the winding patterns are all the same.

Second, the rest of the test pickup would be identical, for the same reason. Ideally, one would install various test bobbins on the same magnets et al, but that may be too clumsy in test guitars.

The wire used for winding should have its resistance per foot and capacitance per foot measured twice, at start and end of each winding. Likewise, electrical characteristics of the wound coils, including inductance and AC resistance at 1 KHz, and self-resonant frequency. This data will be used to correlate any tonal differences.

The issue is to distinguish differences due to coil inductance and self capacitance from those due to differing coil volume from those due to magnet wire insulation.

This is going to be complicated. I'm betting it won't be easy.

[big_teee]

First of all, I have no set opinion on the sound of dielectrics in wire (or in tone caps), although (based on the results of the tone-cap tests) my suspicion is that any such effect will be small. But such questions can only be settled in the lab.

There was a good thread on how to test tone caps and get solid results:

http://music-electronics-forum.com/t10154/

Postings #8 and #18 (and #27 too) in that thread contain my analysis of what is required to avoid the usual pitfalls, including confirmation bias.

The same methods can be applied to the testing of wire insulation, but with a few changes. There are some issues that come to mind immediately.

First, all test coils would need to be machine wound, to ensure that the winding patterns are all the same.

Second, the rest of the test pickup would be identical, for the same reason. Ideally, one would install various test bobbins on the same magnets et al, but that may be too clumsy in test guitars.

The wire used for winding should have its resistance per foot and capacitance per foot measured twice, at start and end of each winding. Likewise, electrical characteristics of the wound coils, including inductance and AC resistance at 1 KHz, and self-resonant frequency. This data will be used to correlate any tonal differences.

The issue is to distinguish differences due to coil inductance and self capacitance from those due to differing coil volume from those due to magnet wire insulation.

This is going to be complicated. I'm betting it won't be easy.

That's all too much work.
I had rather wind, and sell Pickups!
T

[Stratz]

Stratz has his own fervered opinions and condidering is likely approaching 60, could be hearing impared for all we know.

I have no idea why you felt it necessary to insult me for stating my opinion on the tonal differences of wire insulation's.

Go back and read my first post in this thread and see what happened after I presented my opinion. Someone could not accept the fact that poly might not be the do all wire he touts it to be, tried to tell me what I already know and started a big mess.

By the way, not even close on your insinuation, more than ten years to go before 60 and my ears are in excellent order.

[big_teee]

And the moral sn6111 to take away from this thread is that you're just going to have to find out what works for you as a builder. Right from post 2 and 3 you've got some contradictory info. David says heavy build wire usually has a brighter tone, Copper says heavy build wire has a thicker, fatter and smoother tone. Stratz has his own fervered opinions and condidering is likely approaching 60, could be hearing impared for all we know. follow some of the general guidelines, read every post you possibly can, buy what you can afford and be as empirical and critical as your ears and mind will allow. Most importantly have fun and make some people happy. I'm 4 years into it and while making some great pickups IMHO, I'm still learning LOTS. One of my customers has a two page spread in June's GP magazine and he loves my strat pickups. It's when you start getting pros liking your stuff you start getting a hint you're on the right track regardless of the conventions. For example I have this eagle feather that I wave over my pickups BEFORE charging the magnets and I tell you man, I can hear the difference.

I'm an innocent by stander, but!
I am over 60 and resent that.
That remark was uncalled for.
T

[StarryNight]

I can see I am pushing the envelope of appropriate comments so I apologize for sounding irreverent and ageist. I'm 44 and I have tinnitus due to playing in loud bands for years. I assume as most of us have been playing for years it's possible the more seasoned amoung us on this forum could likely have hearing deficits as well from years of prolonged high decibel exposure.

[big_teee]

I can see I am pushing the envelope of appropriate comments so I apologize for sounding irreverent and ageist. I'm 44 and I have tinnitus due to playing in loud bands for years. I assume as most of us have been playing for years it's possible the more seasoned amoung us on this forum could likely have hearing deficits as well from years of prolonged high decibel exposure.

If that is an apology, it is accepted.
I just didn't want the Dissing Us Old Farts to get out of hand!
T

[enkindler]

I have no idea why you felt it necessary to insult me for stating my opinion on the tonal differences of wire insulation's.

Go back and read my first post in this thread and see what happened after I presented my opinion. Someone could not accept the fact that poly might not be the do all wire he touts it to be, tried to tell me what I already know and started a big mess.

By the way, not even close on your insinuation, more than ten years to go before 60 and my ears are in excellent order.

To be 100% honest there is more difference between individual examples of the "PAF" sound let alone among all the PE types over time.

Without empirical data or at least some testable quantity it is all just woo.

Once someone can hand me two PAF or early Fenders (from the same year) that sound alike I'll accept that archaic insulation is important for tone.

I have high speed video of hand winding PE and various types of poly and I think one of the bigger issues is that if you use felt or hand wind the tension changes between the two.

No insult intended, but I know (through 2nd hand sources) that Gibson came to the same conclusion when they dumped PE on their burstbuckers a few years back.

So in conclusion (IMHO) the reason no one can match the PAF or what ever historic "sound" people want to hit is because no one can decide on what that sound is.

Go look at the historical wire information that is even on this site...insulation type may be a factor but it is eclipsed by the other inconstant differences between wire manufactures and batches..

The audio world is full of BS the Denon AKDL1 is 100% proof positive of that, Without some data point or example all information should be considered BS (IMHO)

That said...I have no problem with whatever floats anyone's boat.

I am just glad i'm not chasing after some non-existent "ideal" from 60 years ago... especially by winding pickups with wire that has a similar named but different insulation, wire and QC levels.

[Mike Sulzer]

Yes. For the finer wire, the parallel plate approximation may fall apart, as the coating thickness does not become thinner in proportion. But finer wire sizes also have more decenter. This will be settled in the lab.

Easy enough to check. I found a stainless steel measuring cup, size 1/3 cup, with a handle for attaching a clip lead. Filled it with distilled water and added enough salt so it took a little while to dissolve. Took 10 feet of wire from a spool labeled #43 S. poly. I suppose that this is soldereze with a k of 3.85. Soldered a lead to one end and made sure both ends were out of the water, with the total sticking out of the water about 2 inches so there was 3 m in it. The measurement gave 2.1e-9 F/m, about 6K series resistance, or about 200K parallel (from the transformation rather than a real resistance, no doubt). Using the equation for a cylindrical cap gave a radius ratio of 1.107, or an insulation thickness of about 10% of the radius of the wire. If you use the parallel plate approximation, this would give about 1% error, and so there is no problem.

[Steve Conner]

Yes, there are so many variables that need controlled. Copper thickness, copper conductivity, insulation thickness, dielectric constant. There is also a bunch of mechanical variables like the insulation material's coefficient of friction, that will affect the tension and scatter, and so change the inductance and capacitance of the finished coil even if the electrical parameters of the wire were the same.

It wouldn't surprise me if the scattering process was chaotic even in machine winding. A small change in the wire's mechanical properties could make a big difference to the scattering pattern, just like the proverbial butterfly's wings.

Any time you change wire, you'll change several of these things at once, but to do a good scientific experiment, you're supposed to change only one variable at a time.

Another thing to ponder is that your customers will probably be middle-aged guys with hearing damage too.

[StarryNight]

Doing my own cost/benefit analysis I would rather use poly wire at $14/lb over PE at $39/lb and spend the time and energy experimenting with other elements of pickup making i.e. tension, TPL, steel, wire gauge, bobbin size etc. there are enough variables there to create more than enough various and quality products. Having said that I do also have PE and formvar as part of the arsenal of doing business. But you never know, they might one day just stop making PE - then what?

I'm also not a big fan of marketing hype without empirical evidence and the guitar industry is notorious for it. I've heard it said many times on this forum the only reason wire companies continue to make PE is for pickup makers. I wonder how much of that is due to the need to sell product over the need for an irreplaceable ingredient?

[David Schwab]

David. #1) How do you know what type of wire beginners are buying? Do you PM each one and keep a log? There are many more lurkers here than posters so I have no idea where you get this information from.

Because they started so in their posts.

And by the way David, in my opinion, you're a beginner.

Well Rob I wound my first pickup in 1972 with a winder I built. That's 40 years ago. That beats you out by 5 years. I just wasn't making pickups for sale until 2005.

Also people have heard of my pickups, how about you? You don't even use your real name here.

So far you make a lot of claims about things with nothing to back it up. it's just a lot of talk. And that's not my opinion.