Polished vs Un-polished Magnets

[David King]

I apologize for bringing it up but I do love how the sides are perfectly aligned so that their reasoning is mirrored- just like those damned magnets...

[David Schwab]

What happened to my magnet thread.
This Thread needs to be in the Lobby, or the Soapbox now!

Well what we have found is one magnet is shiny, and the other is rough. That's it.

[Mike Sulzer]

Well what we have found is one magnet is shiny, and the other is rough. That's it.

Well, more seriously, we have found that issues relating to the science and the use of magnets in pickups and those relating to the use of the earth (climate change) and understanding our solar system (water on the moon, mercury) have some similarities and differences.

The science of magnets, at the level necessary to understand how they affect pickup operation, is well known. There is no way around that. Electricity and magnetism are well understood. The reason that you do not expect any surprises has to do with the larger implications. The theory of E&M is tied to the rest of physics. Mess with it, and you mess with relativity and quantum mechanics, where observation and theory are in extraordinarily good agreement.

On the other hand, what is the significance of ice deep in craters at the poles of mercury? There is nothing fundamental involved here, and nothing very complicated. You see it with a radar, and so you do some calculations which appear to verify what you observed. Maybe someone did some less complete earlier calculations (or maybe screwed up) and thought it could not happen. So what?

Climate change involves nothing very fundamental, but it is complicated as can be. Those who deny it it can try to poke holes in some of the calculations and observations, but they have nothing like the evidence that the other side has. Not even remotely close.

But magnets? The electrical properties are well known. It is these electrical properties than can influence the output level and frequency response of a pickup using one magnet or another. And it is those characteristics that can influence the sound.

[David Schwab]

Mike, my point was that science is not fixed, but evolves as we learn new things. When we were kids the text books said Saturn had nine moons. Now it's known to have 62. Some facts change with time.

[Bryan Jeppson]

Polished half of the magnet ,& only to cover the wound strings half ..........

No way man - no polishing machine can replicate the tonal complexities of random scatterpolishing done by hand.

[Mike Sulzer]

Mike, my point was that science is not fixed, but evolves as we learn new things. When we were kids the text books said Saturn had nine moons. Now it's known to have 62. Some facts change with time.

Looking at your comment, I think you were saying much more. One thing you were saying concerned the ego of scientists and how they are resistant to change. I am familiar with that, although believing nonsense unto death is rare. Ice on earth's moon or mercury is not such a thing, but even if it were, the topic here is "the sound of magnets'. You have used precisely this example (ice) before in a discussion of why there might be some as yet unknown reason why neos and ceramics supposedly sound different. They do not when the field strength is the same, and there is is no unknown magic property.

[David Schwab]

Looking at your comment, I think you were saying much more. One thing you were saying concerned the ego of scientists and how they are resistant to change. I am familiar with that, although believing nonsense unto death is rare. Ice on earth's moon or mercury is not such a thing, but even if it were, the topic here is "the sound of magnets'. You have used precisely this example before in a discussion of why there might be some as yet unknown reason why neos and ceramics supposedly sound different. They do not when the field strength is the same, and there is is no unknown magic property.

You are mixing up other people's talk about climate change that was not started by me. I was pointing out that some scientist have indeed lied about their data.

Mike, I have read scientist saying there is no way there would be water or ice on the moon. Period the end. If you search for it, you can find it. Of course if you go back far enough they also thought that if a train went over like 30 MPH the air would be sucked out and everyone would die. We learn new stuff all the time.

Since when are neos and ceramics the same strength? They aren't. That's why I use neos. I don't use little tiny neos like you do. In that test I had done the three magnets used were different strengths. I did not like the tone of the big neo magnet. As soon as I get a chance I will recreate the test.

But the question is why are you clumping several different discussions together? My ex-wife used to do that.

[Mike Sulzer]

Since when are neos and ceramics the same strength? They aren't. That's why I use neos. I don't use little tiny neos like you do. In that test I had done the three magnets used were different strengths. I did not like the tone of the big neo magnet. As soon as I get a chance I will recreate the test.

Well now, I thought you were saying that the smaller neo was close in strength to the ceramic, and that the large difference in sound between the two meant that there had to be more to these differences than just field strength, as I was suggesting should be the case.

Furthermore, in a bass played in the linear range of the amp or recording device, why would field strength change the tone unless you get strong enough to induce noticeable string pull?

I think what I am saying is entirely relevant to the topic of this discussion. It is but a small step from would polish make a difference in sound to a discussion of what properties would or would not.

[David King]

Mike, don't argue with the moderator -you can never win!

[David Schwab]

Well now, I thought you were saying that the smaller neo was close in strength to the ceramic, and that the large difference in sound between the two meant that there had to be more to these differences than just field strength, as I was suggesting should be the case.

Furthermore, in a bass played in the linear range of the amp or recording device, why would field strength change the tone unless you get strong enough to induce noticeable string pull?

I think what I am saying is entirely relevant to the topic of this discussion. It is but a small step from would polish make a difference in sound to a discussion of what properties would or would not.

Yes, the smaller neo was closer to the ceramic. They also sounded very similar in that pickup, but not identical. It was the large neo that increased the low end response of the pickup to the point that I did not like the tone. That's what I said in that thread. I have also since used that to an advantage in some bass pickups.

Why do they sound different? I have no idea. Are the blades getting saturated near the magnet? Did it increase eddy currents? I don't know. But it is a reproducible affect. The larger magnets give a fuller tone. I have one in one of the pickups in my bass. It sounds good at the bridge, but it's too much at the neck. It's not so strong as to pull at the strings, but it's getting close.

In that original discovery, it was the neck pickup for a Strat style guitar, and it didn't sound good there, but a rather small neo did.

We know that stronger and weaker magnets give different tones to pickups. Even if they are the same kind. DiMarzio does this in some of their pickups I have examined. They will use a thick ceramic for the bridge pickup, and a very thin ceramic for the neck. So the surface area of the pole is less, and the magnet will be weaker.

The question for this discussion is; does polishing an alnico magnet change its properties? obviously a little material is removed, but assuming the finished dimensions are the same, what would change?

[David Schwab]

Mike, don't argue with the moderator -you can never win!

That's why the former moderator had two logins. I couldn't be bothered with that. So I'm not the moderator in this discussion.

[Joe Gwinn]

Yeah but -- moderators have their wiles...

But on a pickup group, we are supposed to have violent arguments only about pickups. Can we talk about the acoustic effect of capacitor dielectrics please...

[Bruce Johnson]

Polished dielectrics sound better. I read it on a forum.

[SonnyW]

Yeah but -- moderators have their wiles...

But on a pickup group, we are supposed to have violent arguments only about pickups. Can we talk about the acoustic effect of capacitor dielectrics please...

Since some capacitors have ceramic dielectrics, could there be in theory piezo effects in the ceramic that have an effect on the acoustics, versus say mylar that has none of that effect? Probably belongs in a new thread, just a random thought...

[David Schwab]

Yeah but -- moderators have their wiles...

But on a pickup group, we are supposed to have violent arguments only about pickups. Can we talk about the acoustic effect of capacitor dielectrics please...

You have been hanging around Daniel too much!