Why do manufacturers give DCR & what specs should replace it?

[mcgruff]

Resistance can't tell you what a pickup will sound like but this is usually the only technical spec given. It can give an indication of the number of turns if you assume everything else is equal - often it won't be.

So what should replace it? Number of turns? Inductance and capacitance? Resonant peak frequency? If we were starting everything from scratch, what kind of standardised specs should be presented to buyers to provide some more meaningful information?

[big_teee]

Why do customers need all this info?
Maybe just tell them what type of Pickup it is, and what the pickups are for?
I try to not get into the DCR game, because most customers think more turns and hotter is better.
I try to emphasize tone not specs.
T

[eschertron]

Hey guys,

As an end user of pickups and not a maker, my perception of DCR is that it gives me an indication of output level and midrange resonance. Having said that, I can't tell you what the DCR was for the last pups I purchased. I can say that having a measurement - whatever you designers and builders think that number (or set of numbers) should be - is better to me than being told 'this pickup is sweet but slightly rude'. I mean, c'mon, that's cork-sniffing talk there! Gimme a number! I have at least the conviction of something solid... and maybe that's what the client wants, the belief that they have some decision-making control over their purchases. Whatever number (parameter) makes that easy for the client, use it!

[Zhangliqun]

We give resistance specs because none of us are going to give you turn counts, forget it. To the extent that you understand the effect of wire gauge, temperature, etc, on DCR readings, I disagree with the hordes who say that DCR is all but meaningless. In the absence of turn count or (even more impossible) an accurate figure on the total length of the wire in the coil(s), DCR is fairly useful in that it gives you some idea how much wire is on the coil. Then you have to take into account all the other usual suspects of specs -- magnet type/grade, magnet charge, magnet geometry and size, coil geometry and size, alloys and other materials, on and on -- to get even ballpark on what the pu may sound like.

There is NO spec or group of specs that will tell you what a pickup actually sounds like, just like there are no charts or graphs that will tell you what a particular restaurant's steak will taste like. In both cases, there is one way and one way only to find out.

[big_teee]

We give resistance specs because none of us are going to give you turn counts, forget it. To the extent that you understand the effect of wire gauge, temperature, etc, on DCR readings, I disagree with the hordes who say that DCR is all but meaningless. In the absence of turn count or (even more impossible) an accurate figure on the total length of the wire in the coil(s), DCR is fairly useful in that it gives you some idea how much wire is on the coil. Then you have to take into account all the other usual suspects of specs -- magnet type/grade, magnet charge, magnet geometry and size, coil geometry and size, alloys and other materials, on and on -- to get even ballpark on what the pu may sound like.

There is NO spec or group of specs that will tell you what a pickup actually sounds like, just like there are no charts or graphs that will tell you what a particular restaurant's steak will taste like. In both cases, there is one way and one way only to find out.

So if You tell the guy the pickup is a vintage strat bridge Pickup wound to 6.5k?
So what does that tell you, Not much?
6.5k of 42 heavy won't sound like 6.5k of 42 Single.
And if you know that 6.5k, will 6.5k of 43 PE or 43 HFV sound the same.
Or if it is 6.5k of 44 SPN, PE, etc, what will it sound like?
If the bobbin height is .390", wound to 6.5k will it sound like 6.5k of a bobbin height of .430" ?
What will that 6.5k sound like with hot full charged A5, or 6.5k with A2, or A3 Magnets.
Do you see how meaningless these figures can be?
So how much info are you going to tell them.
I'm just asking the question here.
That is why I try to avoid all of that and discuss type, and tone required.
T

[copperheadroads]

Heres a quote Bill Lawrence
"DC resistance (Rdc) tells you as much about a pickup's tone and output as the shoe size tells you about a person's intelligence! "

[CRU JONES]

EMG lists a bit more:
http://www.emgpickups.com/content/wi...30-0221rA_.pdf


Any of you guys ever have a customer ask for a" 7.89 Henry humbucker", or a "tele-neck with a 2.75kHz resonant frequency and a Damping factor of 4.277"?

My customers do all the time. They come in with their fancy meters and there stethoscopes and... If its not right, it's just not right!

[big_teee]

EMG lists a bit more:
http://www.emgpickups.com/content/wi...30-0221rA_.pdf


Any of you guys ever have a customer ask for a" 7.89 Henry humbucker", or a "tele-neck with a 2.75kHz resonant frequency and a Damping factor of 4.277"?

My customers do all the time. They come in with their fancy meters and there stethoscopes and... If its not right, it's just not right!

No, but if I do, I will send them your way!
I get requests like, "Can You make me a set Like Rodney's down at the guitar Shop"?

[mcgruff]

Any of you guys ever have a customer ask for a" 7.89 Henry humbucker", or a "tele-neck with a 2.75kHz resonant frequency and a Damping factor of 4.277"?

Most guitarists seem to soak up arcane details about amps, guitars, and pedals like a sponge. I don't doubt that they would ask if they knew what to ask for. If inductance and capacitance are important then why not specify them? Why not specify number of turns? Anyone can just buy one and unwind it if they really want to know.

If I'm comparing two pickups of the same design, one with less output for the neck and one wound hotter for the bridge, then OK DCR tells me something. Otherwise... not a lot. There has to be something better which gives a general picture of a pickup's sound.

[big_teee]

Most guitarists seem to soak up arcane details about amps, guitars, and pedals like a sponge. I don't doubt that they would ask if they knew what to ask for. If inductance and capacitance are important then why not specify them? Why not specify number of turns? Anyone can just buy one and unwind it if they really want to know.

If I'm comparing two pickups of the same design, one with less output for the neck and one wound hotter for the bridge, then OK DCR tells me something. Otherwise... not a lot. There has to be something better which gives a general picture of a pickup's sound.

If those things are important to you and your customers then List them.
I've never made a sale, based on pickup specs.
Always its been based on what does the pickup sound like.
Usually it is more of I want better highs, or lows, or more drive.
Or just like a 59 LP, but a little hotter in the bridge.
Or on a neck, I want good tone, but absolutely no Mud on the bass strings.
I do tell the custormer what the DCR range will be on a given wire size, if Asked!
Cru, if A customer is smart enough to request those High tech specs???
Isn't he Smart enough to Make his own Pickups?W?T?F?
T

[CRU JONES]

Lol Thank goodness they don't eh?

I really enjoy listening to how guitarists describe what they want. I don't think it would help me one single bit if they specified any technical details... like Henry's. Usually they don't ask about magnets, wire, or whatever. I did wind a 8kOhm rail pickup for a strat and the customer said,"oh, so like a PAF?" Lol

[LtKojak]

what kind of standardised specs should be presented to buyers to provide some more meaningful information?

No spec gives MEANINGFUL info.

Every customer asking for specs usually like to be BS'ed. They're the ones that THINK they know, and usually a PITA.

So no, no specs for you! (Adapted Seinfeld citation)

[km6xz]

It does tell the customer a little about the Q of the tuned circuit, the slope so it does effect the tone. A gentler slope means lower overtones will he higher in amplitude than if the Q of the resonant circuit was high, where the slope is sharp and the peak higher with lower resistance component of the total inductive reactance of the coil. The DCR also tells the customer what component values in the tone control are needed to have the best energy transfer.
If all else is the same, which is never the case, the DCR would give an indication of harmonic amplitude since it is a major element in the Q of the resonant circuit. No resistance, pure inductive reactance(but real coils also have capacitive reactance ) would result in no harmonics except those falling on the resonant frequency would be present at that output. Very high resistance as a component of reactance would have little frequency discrimination, permitting the string fundamental dominate without much harmonic content. The slope of the resonant filter of the coil's inductive reactance, plus stray and lump capacitance determine the center frequency and the bandwidth of the tuned circuit. The higher the ratio of resistance to reactance, the broader and flatter the filter resonance will be. So lowering resistance enhances higher frequency harmonics, and diminishes lower harmonics and the fundamental. Lowering that ratio lessens the peaking effect of high order harmonics and allows the natural dominance of fundamental and low harmonics. You can see this if you use a spectrum analyzer and magnetic transducer to induce a steady signal into the pickup. Adding resistance will increase the amplitude of lower order harmonics. So if a user really knows about how resonant circuits work, they will be interested in DCR, along with other factors such as inductance. If someone likes your pickup but wants more meat in the mid and lower harmonics, you do not have to rewind the coil, just add a little resistance to the resonant circuit that will increase the fundamental and first couple harmonics. It will lose some of the bite and sting of a highly peaked steep slope resonant circuit. Others want more of it so minimizing DCR without changing the inductive reactive component will provide that.
A very broad response coil without any peaking filter...no resonant frequency... will also work if followed by an active filter that simulates the slope and resonant peak of a normal resonant tuned circuit. When manufacturers start producing those types of pickups using broadband Hall Effect transducers, any style tone can be selected at will by the user. It will put coil winders into the endangered species list. Having such a filter will allow low source Z from the guitar, which means cable capacitance and the secondary resonant peak that is impacted by the cable length and capacitance will be eliminated as well as lowering noise levels.
Hum bucking can be done at the same time by simply having one additional Hall effect transducer as a noise antenna near the pickup but not under the strings, to cancel out the common mode magnetic noise sensitivity. A guitar with an active filter and line drive would have a source Z of under a couple ohms so it could drive long unbalanced lines but balanced lines means even better noise immunity and longer lines. Phantom power should be used to eliminate batteries and allow for balanced line drivers to be sub- 1 ohm source Z with 10 volts p-p signal output from the guitar.

[CRU JONES]

Cru, if A customer is smart enough to request those High tech specs???
Isn't he Smart enough to Make his own Pickups?W?T?F?
T

It takes smarts to wind pickups? And who is this Henry guy everyone talks about?

[CRU JONES]

Nice post, km6xz

I was just kidding about customers asking for certain damping factors. They could,though. Then you would get into the realm of a customer paying you to perform experiments. Which, I would totally be into! ...But, would be very expensive and I have done enough experiments that I have my own directions that I want to go. So, would I get annoyed if we are eternally trying to chase some absolute that I may just totally be over? If I was getting paid how could I argue? In the end, it takes a lot of work to develop something that is well balanced and musically useful. The final judge for me is how it functions live. In 6 month's do they still love it? Or do they wish they just bought a Seymour Duncan or DiMarzio?

The Hall effect pickup is way cool. Have you ever tested the frequency response of any off the shelf parts? I have been meaning to test the frequency response of my Gaussmeter

Also, I have some customers (ok, only 1 or 2) that would pay for the 10Vpp pickup! It would probably be a good learning experience for them