Why do manufacturers give DCR & what specs should replace it?

[Mike Sulzer]

I think the thing here though is that speakers are made to accurately reproduce the source material.

Guitar speakers are not.

[salvarsan]

I think the thing here though is that speakers are made to accurately reproduce the source material.

Not ever.

The largest factor in a guitar amp's sound is the speaker, something that is designed to survive high power while giving predictable distortion modes when the cone begins to act less like a cone.

It is as much an instrument as the guitar.

[Steve Conner]

I think the speakers add more flavour than the pickups. If you look at the frequency response of a paper-coned guitar speaker, it is very intricate with dozens of peaks and dips. That means more resonances, more degrees of freedom in the design, more richness and complexity of sound. A pickup is pretty much just a boring second-order low-pass filter in comparison. (Disclaimer: It undoubtedly has a few more degrees of freedom that the expert pickup winders know about.)

Even hi-fi speakers add a lot more flavour than their designers and users would like. I generally laugh at high-end hi-fi and its love of exotic materials, but in speakers, the materials really do make a difference to the sound. If I had a ton of money to spend on hi-fi, I would spend it on room treatment and speakers.

[ReWind]

I've seen some boutique winder sites where they list the number of turns, and what gauge wire they used.

That's just saying "Here's all my trade secrets! Please copy my pickups!"

There's more to the overall sonic outcome of a pickup than specs. Especially just the specs of a coil. I have no problem sharing my specs. Initially, I DID have my turn counts posted on my website because I felt that DCR didn't tell the whole story, but the existing demographic is already so deeply rooted in the DCR measurement system for guitar pickups that I reluctantly replaced the turn counts spec'ed with "approximately X.XX k Ohms." Also, in the type of pickups I mainly produce, it's expected and assumed that I certian type and gauge of wire will be used and that the turn counts will be within a certain tolerance.


I'm confident that if we all wound a humbucker to "12,000 turns / 42 PE / A4 magnet" that every single one of our pickups would sound different, many to great extents.

[kayakerca]

There's more to the overall sonic outcome of a pickup than specs. Especially just the specs of a coil. I have no problem sharing my specs. Initially, I DID have my turn counts posted on my website because I felt that DCR didn't tell the whole story, but the existing demographic is already so deeply rooted in the DCR measurement system for guitar pickups that I reluctantly replaced the turn counts spec'ed with "approximately X.XX k Ohms." Also, in the type of pickups I mainly produce, it's expected and assumed that I certian type and gauge of wire will be used and that the turn counts will be within a certain tolerance.

Everything being equal after the p/u build is complete (guitar/player/amp/effects/venue) do you find that your p/u's wound to your same recipe are basically indistinguishable, one from the other? I guess the question better phrases is, do you get reproducible results for the same pickup build recipe based on how you wind (hand guided/mechanical traverser/CNC winder)?

[ReWind]

Yes, I do. I get extremely consistent results. I use all three of the above mentioned winding methods for different builds, however, hand-winding is something I don't do a great deal of, so my consistency in that category is likely much lower than mechanical/CNC. ...but I suppose that would also be the case with anyone, given the very nature of the method.

Inconsistency, I find with my builds, mostly occurs when changing wire spools or batches of magnets. I've recently started buying steel by carbon percentage and not just alloy alone, as a means to tighten up that tolerance. I can't do much about the wire/magnets, though I do request a few certain specific ranges, within a wire type's tolerance, from the distributor at time of purchase. I do occasionally tweak a build's other parameters to compensate/compliment a different run of magnets.

[big_teee]

Yes, I do. I get extremely consistent results. I use all three of the above mentioned winding methods for different builds, however, hand-winding is something I don't do a great deal of, so my consistency in that category is likely much lower than mechanical/CNC. ...but I suppose that would also be the case with anyone, given the very nature of the method.

Inconsistency, I find with my builds, mostly occurs when changing wire spools or batches of magnets. I've recently started buying steel by carbon percentage and not just alloy alone, as a means to tighten up that tolerance. I can't do much about the wire/magnets, though I do request a few certain specific ranges, within a wire type's tolerance, from the distributor at time of purchase. I do occasionally tweak a build's other parameters to compensate/compliment a different run of magnets.

Have you had any problems with Elektrisola PE being real small per gauge?
The Red Elektrisola 42 SPN was that way?
Wire seems to be the biggest problem with consistency.

[David Schwab]

Guitar speakers are not.

That's true.

[David Schwab]

There's more to the overall sonic outcome of a pickup than specs. Especially just the specs of a coil. I have no problem sharing my specs. Initially, I DID have my turn counts posted on my website because I felt that DCR didn't tell the whole story, but the existing demographic is already so deeply rooted in the DCR measurement system for guitar pickups that I reluctantly replaced the turn counts spec'ed with "approximately X.XX k Ohms." Also, in the type of pickups I mainly produce, it's expected and assumed that I certian type and gauge of wire will be used and that the turn counts will be within a certain tolerance.


I'm confident that if we all wound a humbucker to "12,000 turns / 42 PE / A4 magnet" that every single one of our pickups would sound different, many to great extents.

I'd guarantee you that you can wind a pickup from the specs on their website and your pickup will sound the same. I bet it would be hard to tell them apart. That's because these are simple designs, like Strat pickups. They didn't list the turns on the humbuckers.

I do it all the time. I get rewinds in for vintage fender pickups, and I just work off the notes I have for those pickups. I also weigh the bobbins and takes notes of that. The pickups always come out sounding good and the customers are happy. One guy liked my rewinds on his '76 Jazz bass pickups so much that he wanted me to make a set for his 5 string Jazz bass using the same specs.

This is also true of rewinds I've done on Gibson T-tops, etc. I'll agree maybe someone else rewinding them would have them sound different. But I think those people are using a lot of scatter, etc., that wasn't in the original wind pattern.

It's not hard to copy a pickup if you know how it was made. Even working off just the DC resistance and wire gauge will get you there. It might not be 100%, but it will be in the high 90s.

[Mike Sulzer]

I think the speakers add more flavour than the pickups. If you look at the frequency response of a paper-coned guitar speaker, it is very intricate with dozens of peaks and dips. That means more resonances, more degrees of freedom in the design, more richness and complexity of sound. A pickup is pretty much just a boring second-order low-pass filter in comparison. (Disclaimer: It undoubtedly has a few more degrees of freedom that the expert pickup winders know about.)

Even hi-fi speakers add a lot more flavour than their designers and users would like. I generally laugh at high-end hi-fi and its love of exotic materials, but in speakers, the materials really do make a difference to the sound. If I had a ton of money to spend on hi-fi, I would spend it on room treatment and speakers.

Yup, the room is kind of the most important component in your high end stereo system. Instead of those $1,000 cables, spend more to do your room right.

[big_teee]

So to Stir the Pot!
What is the Concentus, of what needs to be put on a Pickup.
As time goes on, I tell Less and Less about More and More!
T

[jonson]

So to Stir the Pot!
What is the Concentus, of what needs to be put on a Pickup.
As time goes on, I tell Less and Less about More and More!
T

If your not making hundreds of pickups every day then all that's needed is a date stamp. As long as you keep an informative log then you know where you stand. 30 years and nobody has ever asked me for dcr, mag type etc. It's always down to the sound and to the average player that's all that matters.

[soundmasterg]

It's not hard to copy a pickup if you know how it was made. Even working off just the DC resistance and wire gauge will get you there. It might not be 100%, but it will be in the high 90s.

I'd say that sort of holds true, unless you are making a pickup with lots of metal in it. Then you have to make sure the metallurgy is exactly the same (or as close as you can get these days) or it will sound different. The electrical specs are only part of the equation.

Greg

[ReWind]

I'd guarantee you that you can wind a pickup from the specs on their website and your pickup will sound the same. I bet it would be hard to tell them apart. That's because these are simple designs, like Strat pickups. They didn't list the turns on the humbuckers.

Well, I have to respectfully disagree with you on this on this, unless I'm missing that people are posting ALL the specs. Magnet type, size and charge level, coil offset, turns per layer, coil geometry, and the makeup of the metal materials all plays a pretty significant role of the overall voice of a pickup, in my experience. The first few items in that list being more significant than the others, I find.

An extreme example would be a humbucker with a DCR of 7.5k Ohms, 10,000 turns total, divided evenly at 5,000 turns per coil at a machine wound 50 TPL over a 2.5" A5 partially charged and using .08% carbon content alloys would sound very different from a humbucker with a DCR of 7.5k Ohms, 10,000 turns total, but divided with 6,300 turns on one coil and 3,700 on the other, at a machine wound 100 TPL over a 2.25" A2 fully charged using .23% carbon steel.

[CRU JONES]

Well, I have to respectfully disagree with you on this on this, unless I'm missing that people are posting ALL the specs. Magnet type, size and charge level, coil offset, turns per layer, coil geometry, and the makeup of the metal materials all plays a pretty significant role of the overall voice of a pickup, in my experience. The first few items in that list being more significant than the others, I find.

An extreme example would be a humbucker with a DCR of 7.5k Ohms, 10,000 turns total, divided evenly at 5,000 turns per coil at a machine wound 50 TPL over a 2.5" A5 partially charged and using .08% carbon content alloys would sound very different from a humbucker with a DCR of 7.5k Ohms, 10,000 turns total, but divided with 6,300 turns on one coil and 3,700 on the other, at a machine wound 100 TPL over a 2.25" A2 fully charged using .23% carbon steel.

ReWind, That is making it obvious to a deaf person Anyway... I smell an argument coming on here, so I will just agree with you ReWind, wish you luck, and gtfo!