Story of the Suhr pickup magnets :

[Telemachos]

Suhr might be on to something. We have discussed why old pickups sound different here in the past.

I have an old friend who has a mid 60s Strat he got new when he was a kid. I think its a '64 or '65. The pickups sound very different from his newer Strat, even though the magnets are fully charged. It's has a darker smoother tone. Some people like to say the magnets get weaker, and you even have new pickups make with magnets that don't have a full charge, but these did, I checked them one day, and they matched his newer Strat pretty closely.

So it makes sense that something is different in the magnet alloy.

It's funny how different our ears can hear things. I owned about four or five 1964/65 Stratocasters back in 1984. Also had the older ones from 1962-63 and one very early 1954. To me those 1964/65 Stats in question definitely sounded a lot harder w. more trebles. The 63 pick ups are a different breed with a more pronounced dry boney tone that give it a little quack on top, even w/o playing it in the second or fourth position.

I'm mainly a player. I have done excessive tests on pick ups that i started to dublli back then in these days. My lille replicants did a pretty close job, but in the end it was the guitar's timbre that gave them the right push. I would rather take a guitar's timbre into account than blame it on the magnets. Guitars can sound sound extremely different even when played w. the exact same set of PUs.

Most of us know this anyway, I'm not trying to be educative, just trying to remind you

[Possum]

Here's my take on major holes in this story, and why I'm not drinking the Koolaid. First of it really sounds like he's using Arnold, several pickup makers have been using them for years. Its also the reason Fender got so many complaints about the pickups in their higher end strats, back in the 90's, that they hired Rob Turner's brother to fix the problem. He did some change but I never heard what. I had one of those strats and they were definitely Arnold magnets, same ones I bought to make strat pickups about 8 years ago. If they are making the same thing and I bet they are, its no wonder Landau gave them thumbs down, they bear zero resemblance to vintage strat magnets. I made two versions of that strat set and they were a flat out commercial flop, and sold almost nothing, I still have most of those magnets gathering dust.

Suhr made a major mistake to begin with, he copied the winding pattern, but he makes no statement that shows any awareness that vintage magnet wire and modern magnet are two different animals. I had two strat vintage pickups from a '65 here, one was still working but cut out intermittently, so at least I got to hear it before I rewound it. One had a '64 stamp on the bottom, heavy formvar, hand wound, last of the Leo era pickups, the other was grey bottom machine wound. I unwound them both for hours, watching the pattern. I rewound them both, copied the patterns from both, and it doesn't work, you have to wind them differently to try to capture what the old wire had. The beautiful tone I heard from the one when it was working disappeared completely when copying the pattern with modern wire. No magic magnets there. Suhr doesn't say what kind of WIRE he wound the pickups with, probably poly nylon like most commercial companies use; not a good combination with Arnold magnets.

So, if they are Arnold magnets to begin with, and they removed this supposed material that makes them chip resistant, they're suddenly going to be worth $6.50 for a single rod magnet? So, because that chip retarder is in there in their regular magnets, they should sound like CBS era magnets right or at least later era Leo magnets, but they don't. If anyone buys these magnets, let us know how they sound because its a rather large investment just for an experiment, and you won't get many sets out of the minimum order.

I have an original 1958 strat pickup, and my Chinese magnets sound really close; close enough that by creative winding pattern you get really darn close to vintage strat pickups. The 58 doesn't have some magical sound, its somewhat harsh, and what I hear in it that keeps it from being really annoying, is the wire, not the magnets. Here's a clip of a winding pattern test with HF wire compared to the 58 strat pickup. Recorded on a ZoomQ3HD which has really trebly mics, through my Celestion Alnico Gold 12" speaker before it was really broken in. I won't tell you which is which, just for yuks, there IS a difference, but is it worth paying $39 for the magnets in only ONE strat pickup? $117 for a set? And that is making the large assumption that those magnets actually sound like real vintage magnets, which I highly doubt. Maybe he's using some other company but I haven't read any huge buzz about pickups with high priced magnets on any of the Fender forums, either.

BTW my pickup in the clip isn't alnico 5 but the 58 is alnico 5, so there's a difference there. I like Chinese magnets, and there's plenty of company's products to choose from, made very crudely, good stuff...

[rhgwynn]

Thanks Possum, for that insightful post. Is Suhr a member here? At the very least he must be a lurker, right?

-Rob

[Possum]

I still have yet to do my vintage wire experiment with the 50's NOS plain enamel, identical to what I found in the majority of PAF's I restored. The big pile of data from Elektrisola's lab examinations of my many samples of vintage PE, and modern PE, show that there are radical differences between the two. I scored another roll of 50's PE today from Ebay for practically nothing, took a risk, but it turned out to be 44 gauge unfortunately, beautiful wire though, both on 50's aluminum spools. I do know that ohms per foot was quite different, and other things were too, but rewinding those two strat pickups from the '65 strat gave me a vivid example that the old wire was a big contributor to how those pickups sounded. Once I get this experiment done I'll post a youtube video on the findings, directly comparing two of my PAF replica HD pickups, one with modern wire and one with the 50's wire. Just need MORE TIME, damnit...... ;-)

[Possum]

BTW, I get my magnets from Shea at Magnetic Hold, great prices, no having to deal with Chinese import problems or miscommunications. Shea is a straight shooter, no magic magnets, just great quality good sounding products from several sources over there. Tell him I sent you ;-)

[JGundry]

Finally reading ohms per foot Possum? Glad to see you are taking my advice.

IMHO if you in the top 90% price tier and claim to make reproduction pickups and can't manage to put together the cash for magnet orders from Perm. mag, or T&S or Arnold then you are hobbyist.

If you can't get vintage tone from USA made magnets you are doing something wrong and need to spend more time on research. News flash, vintage magnets did not come from China and you can get whatever you want from the 3 USA magnet makers including vintage formulations. Chinese magnets can have one good batch and the next is total crap and none are as accurate to vintage as USA made. Been there done that, USA made exclusively for ThroBak as long as I can get it. My customers love it and the tone speaks for itself. More professional makers should order from these three. Suhr, ThroBak, Holmes, Kinman.... do.

[Steve Conner]

Ooh, bitchslap! Thanks for posting the clip Possum. To my ears, the first section has a real nasty high end, like nails on a blackboard if not tinfoil on your fillings. The second section is better. The fizzy edge is gone and there's a little midrange boost that gives it a singing quality.

I'm going to guess the first one is the '58 because you said it was harsh.

[JGundry]

If you are in the USA and can buy vintage spec. magnets from the 3 USA makers and you are pricing and claiming to make a dead on repro, Chinese magnets are foolish. You might as well be repurposing magnets from a Hello Kitty Strat and calling the finished pickup a vintage repro. Dissing guys like Suhr that are doing it right is just bad juju.

Possum is a hobbyist, enthusiast "researcher". The worst of these "researchers" have brought the world breakthroughs like balsa wood violins, violin varnish with bodily fluids in it and now Dave Stephens' "secret dielectric sauce" (no I'm not making that up).

The qualifications that unite the worst of these hobbyist researchers is their unique competence and attention and the universal lack of competence of all others with more credibility. They also have the ability to compose unreadable treatises on the subject that have more factual holes than Swiss cheese. This may help put Possum's comments in perspective.

I should say there are great hobbyist researchers like Seymour Duncan that went on to build a professional reputation and product line are an inspiration to small business people.

[big_teee]

You guys need to put on the boxing gloves!
I like Shea's magnets too.
He has great A2 Bar magnets.
So why don't you guys cut each other some slack?
We always get a counter remark everytime Possum comments?

[David King]

Ahh the professionalism of our senior members have us all aspiring to become just like them.

[JGundry]

You guys need to put on the boxing gloves!
I like Shea's magnets too.
He has great A2 Bar magnets.
So why don't you guys cut each other some slack?
We always get a counter remark everytime Possum comments?

Actually I only counter with facts when facts are needed. I don't make shit up.

[big_teee]

Actually I only counter with facts when facts or needed. I don't make shit up.

You have facts according to John.
Possum has facts according to Possum.
Everyone is entitled to their own opinions.
Just get tired of all the arguing.
It's apparent you guys have issues that go way back.
I still think the boxing gloves, would cure most of that!

[Steve Conner]

If you really hated each other that would be OK, but I get the impression it's all a marketing ploy.

[JGundry]

You have facts according to John.
Possum has facts according to Possum.
Everyone is entitled to their own opinions.
Just get tired of all the arguing.
It's apparent you guys have issues that go way back.
I still think the boxing gloves, would cure most of that!

Let me just put this in perspective. Dave Stephens makes a habit of emailing potential customers inaccurate dreck at the expense of other pickup makers me being one of them, you too probably. Frankly it is illegal and I have grown tired of it.

[big_teee]

The forum has gotten to be a much more positive environment lately, and I like it!
Peace, and Tone!
B_T