Using 1960's Plain Enamel Magnet Wire

[Possum]

wire....

To me its important to know WHY one wire sounds better than some others. How does it affect capacitance, inductance, Q, on identical coils of another type. Its super important to know the O.D. and build, is it nom-min, nom-max? Alot of vintage PE for example in 42 measures .0027" consistently through alot of samples I have. You can't get that size in PE anymore. So to just say some wire sounds better than another is pointless unless you know why, knowledge is power.....

[WBPickups]

And Will, I wasn't criticizing you... your pickups sound good in those clips. But comparing that Gibson with the covered pickups wasn't a fair test... not that I'm crazy about Gibson pickups either.

And you've been on my MySpace friends list for a while now... not that that means anything, but welcome to the forum.

Hi David, I agree that covers take some from pickups. But not that much to say the test was unfair. It wasn't really a formal test. But I will say that the pickups in Franks guitar were lower outputs than the Gibby. Both of those guitars are Franks by the way. Frank is a well respected touring Jazz musician and knows his tone. None of those videos were planned or rehearsed. In fact, they were recorded on a Sony Camera that does quick vid clips. He's a great guy and has become a good friend.

But thanks David! Yeah, I have admired your basses from afar. Excellent work!

[WBPickups]

Welcome to the forum Will, glad to see you and meet you. Hope you post a lot about pickups and this crazy black art we call winding. Take care Bro.

thank you and nice meeting you too.

[WBPickups]

Hi Will, welcome aboard. It's good to have another pro to provide expertise... without giving away your secrets Jason hardly ever posts anymore..probably too busy as well as Wolfe.

Thank you Kevin! I may not be able to post that often but will gladly talk & give any advice to anybody when I can. Busy is an understatement I also do guitar tech work here locally. That and working on pickups, local shows for bands. And my wonderful family. I am always feeling a like a one legged man in a butt kicking contest...

Cool. I wouldn't mind having some of that wire myself. Just curious... why hasn't the pickup maker that supplied you the wire used it themselves?

He hasn't wound pickups for over 20 something years. He is an older retired gentleman who had the wire. There is a reason why he had the wire but I was asked not to name names and the story behind it. I will honor my word to him. But I will say this, he had the wire for sale on the Internet. No one, responded to his ad except for me..

Pricing is all up to you and what you think these pickups are worth. I don't think you're gettng rich. Making pickups is a hard way of making a living. As Possum mentioned, one can probably make more money collecting and recycling aluminum cans. I have a good paying full time day job and i don't think i will ever quit it to make pickups full time. I don't think i could deal with all the parts supply issues/headaches, filling tons of orders...etc.... i would probably pull out all my hair. I'm a tone freak just like most folks here, however, I really respect those who go out on a limb to do it full time. When i get my shop fully up and running, i want to keep it small and have one on one contact with customers.

I am a small shop and will remain one. What helps me with orders is having one full time guy and one part time guy helping me with assemblies/testing so that I can concentrate on the winds only. They also do some of the guitar repairs with me. I don't have dealers selling my base model products, Although, I am doing some custom winds for a few online dealers that will be announced soon. All my customers can call me anytime. I may not always answer the phone, but will get back to them ASAP between working times.

As for being a tone freak, I am with you on that. I am the worst when it comes to my own quality control. Every pickup we make gets guitar time before we ship to a customer. That's where I am lucky to have help here at the shop. I can wind, they can assemble and someone is always able to do a quick test on the pickups before shipping.

Dude ...it's good marketing. Anytime you make a sale and don't have to spend money to get the sale....IMO that is GREAT marketing...and more money in your pocket.

Well, I have to thank my customers for that. They did all the real marketing for me. The only thing I think that helps me is that I listen to my customers needs. I then go from there. As someone said before, Tone is subjective, but a crap pickup is a crap pickup. There is no excuses except that of the winder. I don't make excuses for my pickups. If I fail a customer with a lousy sounding pickup, I will wind them another one. Although, I have been fortunate to have been batting 100% with my customers pickups.

All that matters is that you're comfortable with it.

Very comfortable with it, and so are my customers..

Yeah, i agree with Spence. It's hard to get something like a shoot out coordinated (keeping all the test gear equal..etc...)The only way i see it getting done is to send them to someone/folks (who is/are unbiased to the makers) and let them try them out and let them write a review of the good and bad points of each one and have them provide an overall rating without trashing the runner ups....you have to still keep in mind that tone is still subjective.

I am game if anybody else is. I am not saying mine are the best but it would be fun to see what everyone else's compare to each others. Let's all work together and get a respectable magazine to see if they can do it. Get maybe 3 reviewers to test them in the same guitar. pots, caps and amps. Tone is subjective, yes I know. Is that some kind of oath here? LOL! Just messing around. The reason I don't like that saying is that to me tone is not subjective. If that's the case, then let's all quit doing what we are doing and buy all the Chinese pickups on ebay.... I hear a pickup and know in 2 seconds that it sucks and is tone dead. I am sure a lot of you can agree under your breath..

As mentioned before in the forum, each pickup maker thinks he makes the best pickups....but no one really touts that theirs are better than anyone else's. There is not much trash talking done here about others. However, when there is...the person usually gets flamed and that usually takes care of it.

Well, I never said that my stuff is better than anyone's, But if you read where this post was going, It wasn't flattering to me, my customers, or my pickups. If someone wants to talk about my customer and my pickups, At least buy my pickups and earn the right to throw down. I had a lot of skeptics that bought my pickups just to be ready to slam them and me, fortunately my pickups won them over.

I personally ask a lot of questions and want to hear others opinions on matters related to pickups whether it's about parts vendors, pickup contruction, or marketing strategies. That is what forums are for (IMO). ...to bring topics out into the open to be discussed and to share knowledge.

Totally agree... But, don't knock what someone is doing without real knowledge as to what is the product, or their customers.

Thanks for joining. I hope you post a lot...when you're not working

Thank you Kevin. By the way it looks here, I am probably not that welcomed to this club. I will be glad to talk shop with anybody and help with ideas one may have. No, I will not share my technics and secrets. You have to buy the pickups and take them apart... Although, my advice to anyone wanting to do this. Is don't copy anybody by buying someone's pickups and dissecting them to steal their ideas. Be original, it's not that hard once you find your happy place.....

Will

[Spence]

Spence, I never claimed to make a PAF clone nor have I ever claimed to say that the 67-07's are clones. Personally, no one can. As for this wire. These pickups have been tested by a lot of reputable people in the biz before I put them out there. This isn't my first day in the rodeo. I have been making pickups for quite a few years now.

I myself could care less what my competitors are doing or think of my products. Back to the wire, the proofs in the puddin'. This wire sounds fantastic and to dispute that without hearing them yourself is really quite funny to me. But I would suggest playing them. I think you would love them. I have nothing to hide here. In fact, I am a fan of other winders out there. I have a set of pickups from someone else in one of my guitars that I love. Just because I make pickups, doesn't mean I don't appreciate other's work.

As for Don Mare, I never suggested he was an idiot. In fact, I don't even know him at all. Or even heard one pickup of his. Or even yours too. When I wrote that challenge. I meant it. Not to see who's the best. But to see what everyone's take on a vintage wind.

But I was a little bit miffed that someone would suggest that I would lie to my customers or take advantage of them and question my future as a winder. I am here to stay like it or not. And if I said the same about you Spence, you wouldn't be happy about that yourself. Especially when, I work my butt off everyday making these and I never disrespect any of my competitors selling pickups.. I can't believe that my competitors would even worry about what I am doing. I believe in my pickups 100% and I stand behind them. My pickups are to be played not ebay.. I am a custom shop and I work with my customers to achieve their tones. My customers have all been happy. Although I do need to work on my customer service skills. But I am a one man winder and answering emails is a pain in the butt for me. I'd rather take a phone call...

Look, once again. It's nice to know that people out there are talking about my pickups. But don't judge when you have nothing to base it on. But if you want to talk about me and my products. At least buy a set and earn the right too as my customers have.

Remember, If I come across like an a$$hole. I am sorry. I am just a blunt guy. But don't be butt hurt. I am really not pissed at anyone....

Have a nice day!

I can make a PAF clone and I know a couple of others who can so it may be your personal opinion that one one can but that's where you are wrong.

I didn't dispute your claims about your pickups sounding good. So what's giving you that funny feeling?


I didn't suggest you would lie to your customers either. In fact, I couldn't care less whether you lie to them or take them in the broom closet for a quick session. The subject was raised about your wire. Your wire isn't a wire that was ever used in vintage pickups. That's all. The rest doesn't matter and I for one have lost interest in your ramblings....

[WBPickups]

I can make a PAF clone and I know a couple of others who can so it may be your personal opinion that one one can but that's where you are wrong.

I didn't dispute your claims about your pickups sounding good. So what's giving you that funny feeling?


I didn't suggest you would lie to your customers either. In fact, I couldn't care less whether you lie to them or take them in the broom closet for a quick session. The subject was raised about your wire. Your wire isn't a wire that was ever used in vintage pickups. That's all. The rest doesn't matter and I for one have lost interest in your ramblings....

You are wrong... My wire was not ever used in vintage pickups?

As for this subject... I must be striking a nerve with you Spence. Why? I never called you out.. What's giving me a funny feeling is guys like you claiming to know it all. What makes you an expert?

[WBPickups]

PS, Spence... It seems like you have it in for me and my products. And others who don't agree with you. Rambling? I was asked questions and I aswered them. But you didn't like my answers. Sorry. How would you like me to answer them Spence?

[Norcal_GIT_r]

PS, Spence... It seems like you have it in for me and my products. And others who don't agree with you. Rambling? I was asked questions and I aswered them. But you didn't like my answers. Sorry. How would you like me to answer them Spence?

See what I said to you earlier today...

[WBPickups]

See what I said to you earlier today...

Yeah.... LOL!

[WolfeMacleod]

Remember, If I come across like an a$$hole. I am sorry. I am just a blunt guy. But don't be butt hurt. I am really not pissed at anyone....

Have a nice day!

Will, nice to see ya here man. It's been quite awhile (last NAMM show, as I recalL!)

Don't feel bad.. I'm blunt and can come across as an asshole too..especially on this forum!

I made a comment early about the wire lookign liek Polysol..it photographs like Polysol, so that is what I was thinking. Formvar should photograph a bit darker and richer, and PE should be almost black.
I'm curious to know if you'll send me a one or two foot lenght of this wire...but I won't hold my breath.

But be careful. I might buy a set

Going to NAMM again?

[pupoholic]

read the whole thread -- I was accused of being the guy with the wire -- had good reason to make those statements -- it's called self defense --

a bro or two here need to leave my name "DON MARE" alone at least a tiny tad more then they seem to do... while others forgave and moved on.. actually those who were directly effected by my one "Mouthy Moment In the sun" already cooled and we talk like humans now and share info.. seems ashame I'm still gettin' ROCKS to the head by maybe one or two bros, that were BTW. far-far less effected by "my moment" if AT ALL.. and the Rocks have still not stopped since that day... just got re-smacked up along side the head by the same fellow in this thread I see..

thats the only reason I got dragged into this conversation, I had little interest to post here much at all lately... seems I'm rousted out by GOOGLE Alerts lately I have set up to keep tabs on the business I'll hit a link in my email and end up here cause somebody LOVES MY name "DON MARE" more then HOMER SIMPSON or something???????????


so I never just piped in to POKE Ol' WB in the ribs or anyone else here for that matter.. I am not like that at all..

DON MARE

[Spence]

You are wrong... My wire was not ever used in vintage pickups?

As for this subject... I must be striking a nerve with you Spence. Why? I never called you out.. What's giving me a funny feeling is guys like you claiming to know it all. What makes you an expert?

Show me one iota of evidence that I claim to know it all. That said, don't feel afraid to ask anything. I'm very easy going infact.

You're not striking a nerve with me at all. This forum is generally populated by like-minded individuals who want to share a bit of knowledge and talk pickups. Most people on here don't talk up their own products. Some of us do a lot of R&D and tell others of our findings.

I haven't got any issues with any other pickup maker including you but I did find it curious that you made a big deal out of your vintage wire stockpile. The question I am asking is what do you think the benefits of age have to do with the tone you're getting from this wire? If the answer is no benefit, then why make a big deal out of it? Also, what do you think the benefit of the poly-mystery coating is compared to other types of coating? Can you share this info? That's what we do on this forum. OK, if you don't have an interest in sharing then we at least know where we stand with you.

Lastly, if Norcal GIT r has an issue with me why not say what it is. I'm all ears....

[kevinT]

Totally agree... But, don't knock what someone is doing without real knowledge as to what is the product, or their customers.

I don't want to keep kickin' a dead horse here. It was not my intent to sound like i was knocking what you're doing. Granted my bit about the 'higher price' thing kind of threw things off of the true intent of the question, which was: would other winders on the forum use 30-year-old enamel wire in their pickups knowing what the effects of age can do to the enamel insulation?

Your website mentioned that it was 1967 enamel wire and i posed the question to the forum to see what they thought. I also threw in some "what if's" to think about. Most folks don't know the effects of age on enamel wire and if they did, they might take that into consideration in their purchase decision, i don't think that was knocking your customers...i'm just putting myself in the customer's shoes. I would want to know if i was going to buy a set. You have since clarified what type of wire it is so the whole enamel wire thing is a mute point.

I understand that you may be taking some of this personally and that it may seem like an attack on you and what you're doing....i assure you that it's not. I would probably feel the same way. You're offering the market something different, so you stood out, and by doing so (IMO) you've created a good topic to discuss on the forum....that is all this was intended to be.

IMO, all that matters is that you're are comfortable with what your doing.

People have called me a trouble maker (not on the forum) because i ask a lot of questions or they think that i'm up to something sneaky. I still consider myself a student of pickup making at this point....but i'm getting there....and the only way to get to where i want to be is to ask tons of questions.

Much success to you in the future bro. I hope to see you at NAMM myself, one of these days.

kevin

[WBPickups]

Will, nice to see ya here man. It's been quite awhile (last NAMM show, as I recalL!)

Don't feel bad.. I'm blunt and can come across as an asshole too..especially on this forum!

I made a comment early about the wire lookign liek Polysol..it photographs like Polysol, so that is what I was thinking. Formvar should photograph a bit darker and richer, and PE should be almost black.
I'm curious to know if you'll send me a one or two foot lenght of this wire...but I won't hold my breath.

But be careful. I might buy a set

Going to NAMM again?

It was a pleasure meeting you @ NAMM. I will be at winter NAMM this up coming year.

Below is a picture of my wire on the top of some PE on the right. Wolfe, a sample of the wire comes with every order. Anybody is more than welcomed to order the pickups and recieve a sample of the wire.

[WBPickups]

Show me one iota of evidence that I claim to know it all. That said, don't feel afraid to ask anything. I'm very easy going infact.

You're not striking a nerve with me at all. This forum is generally populated by like-minded individuals who want to share a bit of knowledge and talk pickups. Most people on here don't talk up their own products. Some of us do a lot of R&D and tell others of our findings.

I haven't got any issues with any other pickup maker including you but I did find it curious that you made a big deal out of your vintage wire stockpile. The question I am asking is what do you think the benefits of age have to do with the tone you're getting from this wire? If the answer is no benefit, then why make a big deal out of it? Also, what do you think the benefit of the poly-mystery coating is compared to other types of coating? Can you share this info? That's what we do on this forum. OK, if you don't have an interest in sharing then we at least know where we stand with you.

Yes, it does make a difference using this wire. Why the big deal? Buy a set and hear them. Play with the sample wire if you's like. Do your own comparison. I worked hard on these pickups and no, I don't want to share anything with my competitors. Do you think Leo and Ted sat around and compared notes?

Do you think I would not R&D this? I spent 8 months alone with this wire prior to putting them out. I made 15 set of Protos and sent them out to people who had helped with the development of the series. Discussion is fine with me. Go discuss. As for the 67-07's. The proofs in the pudding. My customers are happy and to me that's the bottom line.

At this moment. I have to go to work. I will offer this to anyone here. Buy the pickups, take them apart. Make sound comparisons and answer your own question. By the way, Anybody here want to buy enough wire to make your own 1 set of 67 pickups. Feel free to call me. I won't be here today, I have to go to San Francisco.