Not strictly pickups but......

[David Schwab]

if the stuff really works it should be measureable in audio analyzer software, the lacquer has a high carbon content, how that will effect eddy currents I don't know, maybe Joe Gwinn can comment. Thing is though there is such small current running through those chips, probably, unless they are power chips, that I doubt there'd be enough current to generate much eddy current action. anyway, it could work and it might be fluff......

After your comment got me thinking (because I do respect your opinion) I went back and read his page again, and he had links to the site of Holger Klein, a physicist.

Welcome to the Soundpage

Click on the link "Dispersion and sound"

Now this guy is very scientific, and he talked about "dielectric dispersion" ... He mentions the tube-o-lator lacquer, and how it relates to sound.

The dielectric dispersion is also the explanation for a lot of little understood sound differences at electronic parts. Especially known is this for foil condensators, where polypropylen, styroflex, mica and oil paper are said to be especially suitable regarding sound. Concerning amplifier building "sound puzzlers" report in accordance that a free wiring is more advantageous than building up circuit boards.

After attempts with different circuit board materials it was stated that teflon and ceramics as support material lead to clearly better sound result than the commonly used epoxy resin FR4. Some years ago, when many transistors can be otained in metal as well as in plastic cases, one could easily make sure the advantages of the metal type with regard to sound.

Similar is true for some operations amplifier which are offered in plastic and ceramic cases. The ceramic type sounds always better. It is still striking that even very high-class integrated operation amplifiers are outdone with regard to sound by clearly more primitive circuits with definite worse data, if the last ones are only build up in a discrete manner. The reason lies in the dispersive properties of the plasic case.

This can be easily proved by simply painting the plastic box of an operation amplifier or DA-changer with a lead pencil. Thereby the sound of the circuit is changed immediately and drastically, because the dielectric properties of the box are influenced. This changen can be easily removed with a eraser.

A professional form of this effect is the "Tube-o-Lator Lacquer" offered by Charles Altmann( http://www.altmann.haan.de/ ). This is a coating, which causes a sound "similar to a tube". Another effect is the sound influence of isolation material concerning otherwise identically built cables. Here the following hierarchy is valid: air, PTFE (Teflon), Silikon, PE, PVC in a descending sequence concerning sound.

I've always liked teflon insulated wire. But I figured it was because it didn't melt!

I think I'm going to try the pencil trick this weekend.

[David Schwab]

Here's something to chew on. A company named Creation Audio Labs makes this gadget called the "Redeemer" which from their description, appears to be a buffer amp.

However they go on to claim that the "circuit has an innovative, new design which beats the specs of everything else in existence" and:

Your guitar equipment increases the "load" on your guitar's pickups. This alters the magnetic field around your guitar strings and literally forces them to push electrons through your amplifier and other equipment in order to vibrate.

This dampens the vibration of the guitar strings, the finer harmonics which should be there, never get produced, and the string cannot ringing out and sustain like is should.

(that quote is from improveyourguitarsound.com which seems to exist only to sell the Redeemer)

I buy the buffer bit... I use them all the time. I don't get the part about the magnetic field...

Have any of you guys heard of this thing, and what do you think of the claims?

So therefore unplugging my guitar should make it sound different?

[dpm]

Audere's preamp apparently works on the same principal - http://www.audereaudio.com/ZmodeVibrations.htm

Also, think about how the Sustainiac/Sustainer system alters string vibration... obviously in a much stronger way.

[David Schwab]

Audere's preamp apparently works on the same principal - http://www.audereaudio.com/ZmodeVibrations.htm

I'm familiar with Audere's preamp. That's a new page he put up. It's interesting because I was discussing this over at TalkBass forums the past few days. Maybe this is in response to those discussions.

I actually do a similar variable loading thing with my buffers. That works exactly as expected.

What I'm not convinced about it that we have a two way interactive system with the pickups. Obviously if you load the pickup, the high frequencies will be shunted to ground resulting in a darker tone. I also accept that the pickup+load is a tuned system. What I'm having a problem with is that the magnetic field is changed. I know there's a certain amount of self inductance going on, and that flowing current produces magnetic fields. I just think those fields are swamped by the permanent magnet in the pickup.

I certainly don't hear more sustain in my bass under a high Z load... at least no more than usual.

But as always, I could be wrong, and this is something I want to look into. I've never heard of the phenomenon before.

Also, think about how the Sustainiac/Sustainer system alters string vibration... obviously in a much stronger way.

No, the sustainic is a small amplifier attached to a pickup coil. The coil acts like a speaker coil, and radiates a field under the strings relative to the signal being fed to it,which of course is the guitar. So you get a feedback loop going.

The difference here is you have a powered source driving the string. It requires a fair amount of energy to drive the string. The pickups are a passive sensing device, not an active driver. The amount of current flowing in a pickup produced by the strings is rather small.

The pickup senses the string's motion, but by sensing it it shouldn't be stopping it from vibrating. The string does loose energy, but that's into the body, and is more of an entropy situation. The energy was supplied by plucking the string, and it's a finite amount, so it just decays and runs out of energy. The more ridged and more mass in the body/neck system, the more energy is reflected back to the string, or just not absorbed in the first place.

I don't think the pickup is taking energy from the string. As an example, look how much more sustain a solid body guitar has compared to an acoustic. Now I'll accept some high frequency vibrations could be damped by the pickups, but look at "Stratitus"... you get that out of tune warble.

I'm just not convinced on this one yet...

That's how I see it anyway. Oh Mister Gwinn?

[Joe Gwinn]

if the stuff really works it should be measureable in audio analyzer software, the lacquer has a high carbon content, how that will effect eddy currents I don't know, maybe Joe Gwinn can comment. Thing is though there is such small current running through those chips, probably, unless they are power chips, that I doubt there'd be enough current to generate much eddy current action. anyway, it could work and it might be fluff......

It's nonsense. Your comments about about the lack of sufficient current are right on, and would be correct even with power chips. The good news is that it won't do any harm, other than economic harm.

As for the $485 wooden knobs, you can buy a good little lathe for that kind of money.

[Joe Gwinn]

I have no doubt that there are things we don't yet recognize that affect audio signals. So, yes, I can see where we have different dielectric effects of insulators, and even the skin effect.

But I draw the line with wooden knobs, that even if they did sound better, shouldn't be $485, and using some lacquer to paint on the platter and tone arm of your turntable (as well as everything else you have... including the $485 knobs)... Notice how these things are VERY expensive? I think that's a tip off right there. This knob HAS to be good... it's $485!

Geeze, gimmie a lathe and some beechwood. There's a niche to be filled!

For $500, one can buy the lathe: http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?P...&PARTPG=INLMK3.

This I can understand... GaborLink, and it's kind of the same idea as time aligned speakers and the BBE processor.

Time alignment does matter, but that's a separate issue.

I read Herr Heinrich's article and patents. His gadget has a max dispersion of 10 picoseconds ("of 10 ps or lower", mentioned in "Secrets I" on his webpage http://www.finalinvention.de/index1.htm, just above the figure).

At 50 KHz, a cycle lasts 1/50000= 20 microseconds, so 10 pS is one part in 2 million. Good luck hearing it.

I doubt that even a national standards lab could detect such a small dispersion effect. They would go to radio frequencies to make the measurement.

Herr Heinrich's description of how dispersion and counter-dispersion work is exactly right, and his background in electrical engineering (mentioned on his website) is apparent.

So, I bet he knows full well that the effect of his device is undetectable at audio frequencies.

[dpm]

No, the sustainic is a small amplifier attached to a pickup coil. The coil acts like a speaker coil, and radiates a field under the strings relative to the signal being fed to it,which of course is the guitar. So you get a feedback loop going.

Understood. My point was more that a forced change in the magnetic field will alter a string's vibration, the sustainiac being the most extreme example I could think of. I should have been more clear.

I'm rubbish at electronics, but I can kind of see how a field could be altered to some degree by load. You have a very good point about the permanent magnets. Surely this is something that could be measured somehow in a lab?

FWIW I don't hear a sustain difference in low-z mode either, though nor have I tried listening for it. There's a lot of mass in bass strings...

On the topic of the 'magic paint', knobs and general hifi bollocks. Really, if every other aspect of your hifi is so perfect - room treatment, power conditioning, temperature and humidity (and you're wearing your special non-reflective, non-absorbent, non-refractive listening suit in your special chair with the head positioning clamp) - by all mean paint the IC's in your amp. Paint them red for faster transient response. Or better yet, do something worthwhile with your time. Surely the body's constant production of ear wax is altering my sonic perception? Maybe there's surgery to stop that?

Woops, slipped into rant mode

[David Schwab]

Understood. My point was more that a forced change in the magnetic field will alter a string's vibration, the sustainiac being the most extreme example I could think of. I should have been more clear.

I understood that. My point was that a Sustainiac is an output device, while a pickup is an input device. This is analogous to a speaker and a microphone. You can get sound out of a microphone, but you must put energy into it. Just hooking it up to the input of an amp wont do a thing. Speakers on the other hand are part of a reactive circuit.

Also even though it's implied that the strings power the pickup... that's not really true. The pickup gets its energy from the magnet. The signal ends up in the coils by magnetic reluctance, so there's no direct contact, besides friction. Reluctance cannot consume energy. The magnetic field is mostly static, as far as I'm concerned.

The loading is only changing the frequency response of the pickups (forms a resistively-damped second-order low-pass filter).

[Mystic]

I'd like to know how he thinks that stuff is going to effect a Digital device. Does it change the ones to zeroes?

[David Schwab]

I'd like to know how he thinks that stuff is going to effect a Digital device. Does it change the ones to zeroes?

Bender: Ahhh, what an awful dream. Ones and zeroes everywhere... and I thought I saw a two.

Fry: Don't worry, Bender: there's no such thing as two.

[Mark Hammer]

Or buy some nice little plastic push-on knobs.

[David Schwab]

Or buy some nice little plastic push-on knobs.

You mean in place of the $485 beechwood knobs? No, they say plastic sounds bad! They liked Bakelite though. Slightly different plastic I guess...