Fake PAFs

[Jim Shine]

Similar decals used to float around the guitar shows in the 80's and 90's.

If those look like Duncan bobbins, what era? I have rewound countless 70's and 80's Duncans and don't recall ever seeing them like that inside. Typically they look much like the Butyrate bobbins we get from Mojo, and older ones have that exact same mold mark inside T tops have on top (PHI or PH1?). Now I have seen a similar style to these shown made within the past 20 years..but not older.

[freefrog]

If those look like Duncan bobbins, what era?

The dissected bobbin in my post comes from a PU of the same batch than the one shown in my topic here:

http://music-electronics-forum.com/t29200/

[Jim Shine]

They must not have lasted long. Definitely not through the entire "Seymourized" sticker period as I have rewound, and currently even still own several of them. Each I have been inside of had the Gibson style bobbins.

[Possum]

I'm guessing around '78, here 's some pix of a one of these Duncans in double white butyrate, and dissected zebra, and my own silk screen decals that I print myself:

[Jim Shine]

That double cream has all the hallmarks I see on the Seymourized sticker, oval paper sticker, and very early rectangular sticker pickups. Very cool to see that!

Does your Duncan PAF have a little yellow stripe on the black lead? Most all early Duncans I have had made before 1981ish have a yellow stripe woven in. Though after years of age, they can be hard to see in the exposed area.





FWIW, the pickups being asked about, the bend from legs to feet look more rounded than the Duncans.

[Rick Turner]

Boy, I almost wish I could be around in 2054 to see discussions about the Windy Coilwank copies of the Humlin Buckstop forgeries of the Wanker Winder clones of the Seymour Duncan versions of the Seth Lover era Gibson PAF pickups.

How do the f..kin things sound, guys! Oh, I'm sorry, it's really about the black around the gold and the sans-serif font, isn't it?

What the hell is it that is important here?

Oh, it's probably about the price...

Not the sound nor the music...

This shit just pisses me off.

[big_teee]

All Facets of pickup winding is discussed here.
Just pick and choose what you like.
That is what we all do here.
Some like Theory and Design, some like to discuss vintage.
Read what you like, and ignore the rest!
T

[Possum]

The Duncans and knowledge of them is important because some are trying to sell them as authentic vintage PAF's, which they are mostly definitely NOT. Their sound is completely Duncan. The first time I got one of these from a customer I thought it was real, but then you look at the thread cutter screws, and once you open it up you see the sprue marks from the injection mold that real PAF's dont have. Some of my customers have wasted hundreds of dollars thinking they were buying a vintage PAF because they didn't know the signs to look for. As for making things look authentic, its fun for me, its an art to do that stuff, but yeah if they look great and sound like sterile spaghetti it doesn't matter. I sell more relic sets than I do NOS sets, and am always perfecting that art. I had alot of fun doing the silk screen stuff because I use to silk screen as a kid, and being in the art business for 33 years, any time I can add some art element to the work it makes it more fun. My decals now are water based acrylic inks and next I'm going to take a shot at the old solvent based inks, which are messy to use but the decals will look even more real. Everyone has their niche, do what you love and there you go...

[freefrog]

Jim: yes my Seymourized's have a little yellow stripe in spiral around the black lead in the braided shielded wire.

Jim and Dave: in the PU's that I've here, the keeper bars are different. Pic below. I wonder if it's a vintage correct alloy...

[soundguruman]

The Duncans and knowledge of them is important because some are trying to sell them as authentic vintage PAF's, which they are mostly definitely NOT. Their sound is completely Duncan. The first time I got one of these from a customer I thought it was real, but then you look at the thread cutter screws, and once you open it up you see the sprue marks from the injection mold that real PAF's dont have. Some of my customers have wasted hundreds of dollars thinking they were buying a vintage PAF because they didn't know the signs to look for. As for making things look authentic, its fun for me, its an art to do that stuff, but yeah if they look great and sound like sterile spaghetti it doesn't matter. I sell more relic sets than I do NOS sets, and am always perfecting that art. I had alot of fun doing the silk screen stuff because I use to silk screen as a kid, and being in the art business for 33 years, any time I can add some art element to the work it makes it more fun. My decals now are water based acrylic inks and next I'm going to take a shot at the old solvent based inks, which are messy to use but the decals will look even more real. Everyone has their niche, do what you love and there you go...

That's a good point. Reproductions don't sound like real ones.

What I found most of all, is that I should have just kept original Gibson humbuckers instead of paying for over-hyped reproductions.
The after-market ones never sounded as good as the originals, to my ears.
Despite all the advertising and inflated claims...

The only new pickup I tried that I really liked was the Gibson Angus Young.
I came to the realization that Gibson still probably makes the best pickups, better tone, less noise, less microphonic - For me anyway.

The passive EMGs to me are pretty acceptable, and closer to the sound I try to get. I still think they sound better than reproductions.

And I don't use single coils or coil tap switches, that's the noise I'm trying to avoid.

But the point that was very influential, was the wood of the guitar body, the material of the nut and bridge saddles.
These have quite a lot to do with the end product, sound quality.
It's not just the pickup that makes the tone of the instrument - the materials & construction of the guitar itself is a huge factor.
Much more than many realize, or give it credit for.

[freefrog]

What I found most of all, is that I should have just kept original Gibson humbuckers instead of paying for over-hyped reproductions.
The after-market ones never sounded as good as the originals, to my ears.
Despite all the advertising and inflated claims...

From Europe, as someone who hasn't found a secret source of vintage PU's for cheap, I see that original PAF's and Early Pat. are still way more expensive on the Web than the most over-hyped and pricey reproductions.

Its true that many of these repros don't sound like the real thing despite of a glowing advertising.

That said, along my quest for me and for other people, I've found two or three winders whose products sound at least as good to my ears as the set of Early Pat. stickers which became my reference for good vintage Gibson tone.

Also: I'm constantly swapping pickups and I've found that if woods matter a lot (obviously), the character of a pickup remains basically the same through various guitars. That's why good pu's can change an average instrument in a good or great one. IME. YMMV. :-)

Anyway: Yes, PAF repros can be deceiving. But modern winders do their best and some of their PAF clones are able to make happy an average anonymous customer like me, even when directly compared to "the real thing".


Back on topic... I'd appreciate a comment about the keeper bar shown in my pic. I know it isn't a vintage correct one. I was wondering if it's a kind of bar often found in Early Duncan's.

[big_teee]

I just like good Sounding Humbucker pickups.
Just call mine Humbuckers, the whole PAF Nomenclature thing including the stickers seems a bit much.
However, if that is what you like, I'm fine with it.
I like the pickup design, and I try to just make mine sound good.
Tonally, I like less than the 5000 winds on the neck and more than the 5000 on the bridge.
As stated earlier, IMO a lot of the PAF Magic was in the big heavy Mahogany body, and Mahogany neck Gibson Guitar.
Whose name is on the Pickup will not make it Wonderful, or Terrible.
GL,
T

[Rick Turner]

Wow, fifty thousand on the bridge! That's going to be one hot pickup! Might need a bigger rout for it, too... :-)

[soundguruman]

Over-wound pickup is highly over rated.
What you get is overload into the first amp stage, too much microphonics, etc...

That's what I liked about Angus Young PU.
Just a little over wound, a little brighter, with careful attention to wax, to keep the microphonic tendencies down.
Carefully balanced frequency response.
As far as a hot PU, it's the only one I tried that was worth anything.

Too much is just a bunch of noise that you don't need.
In many cases there is a stock PU that will give a better result overall.

[big_teee]

Sorry, too many zeros, correction made.
More in the 5-6k turns range.
You're correct, for 50k turns, I would probably need the Swimming Pool Rout!