PAFs that sound like sh*t

[kevinT]

Well, not being one to upset others I am certain that the ones that sounded bad were the ones wound on the Leesona. That's not to say that any handwinder can make a great sounding pickup. So there's probably a bit of both.
In any case, we have a broad spectrum of tones in our personal mind libraries of what sounds good or bad to us individually.

So basically, good tone is in the ear of the beholder and that it is quite possible that there are NO bad sounding PAF pickups?

....that's all i wanted to know because i keep hearing here and on other forums that some PAFs sounded like shit....i just wanted to know what made them sound crappy and if there was anything in particular that stood out or were common among all supposedly bad sounding PAFs.


Oh Spence...check this out.... here is your chance...and at an affordable price too!!!


http://cgi.ebay.com/Universal-Windin...QQcmdZViewItem

[Spence]

Ooh tempting at $499 so why's no one here snapped it up?
Thanks Kevin for the link but I am a man of conviction so I'll happily leave it where it is.

[jonson]

On the other side the logos, the serial numbers and all sorts of bits were in odd places or out of line, " WOMEN WORKERS HAVING A BAD DAY"

[NightWinder]

Speculation It is. I've not worked there- Was'nt born yet. I could wager some cash to say the Wire was unstable most definately. A pallet of spools of wire, say 100 5 lb spools......I bet at least 20 were unstable in size/ insulation variables. Often magnets would get yanked of the bricks and slaped under and out......No gauss readings whatsoever. 60's pafs also got shorter- 60.3mm(more agressive harmonic), compared to the fiftys 63.5mm resulting in more mellower tones. Further, being .135 in thickness, more power as compared to the .125 (1/8 in)- Also magnet types (a2,4,5) were random. The 58' hade A4. All this is common knowledge I suppose. Being a hand winder, I want to blame it on the tensioning as well : ) At the end......Purely speculating.....Damn MAchines!!! There is also inconsistancys in the Winder itsself resulting in a different patterns at different yrs.
Kevin T- Very Humbled by your statement.

[R.G.]

60's pafs also got shorter- 60.3mm(more agressive harmonic), compared to the fiftys 63.5mm resulting in more mellower tones. Further, being .135 in thickness, more power as compared to the .125 (1/8 in)- Also magnet types (a2,4,5) were random. The 58' hade A4.

So, what I'm reading from this is that
(a) shorter magnets -> more harmonics, longer magnets -> less harmonics? Is this a general rule? How does harmonic content vary with magnet length. Is a 50mm even more harmonic-y than a 60.3? How much?
(b) 0.135 thick versus 0.125 thick makes "more power", presumably more signal level? I'm guessing that this is the presumed result of a perm mag's M being the integral of b over the area.
(c) Alnico types got subbed out. Kewl. That makes great sense.

All this is common knowledge I suppose.

Where is that common knowledge written down?

[NightWinder]

a) Using shorter magnets under the Axis is going to make things a bit brighter- Harmonics and in general a percieved clarity change in note seperation. Again, you hit the nail on the head earlier in regard to individuals hearing differently, but with todays recording capabilitys tape does'nt lie : ) Our ears do though, as memory of frequencys are limited to our brain capablitys(around 12 seconds). Protools is a valuable tool . I've not went that short, but I'm sure at some point too short may sacrifice the Life your creation?
b)Yes. Thicker magnets will generate more power (volume too)
c) They definately got shunned down a little bit getting ripped of the blocks. I also believe Gibson was not dumb, and knew a few things. They definately did their homework. Maybe not as much as some, but believe me....When they said we wound them til they were full? That was plain cocky...Funny too, but cocky. They knew what they were doing with the coils. Lets not forget the FACT that until 60 or so when they got another machine guided winder, they had more than one handwinder going on side the machine to keep up with production.....Could this be the "good ones"; ) This is fact, regardless of the majority of the ones we may have heard on record, so yes it is a fact that some were wound by hand. Sorry machiners : (
I also forgot to mention the material composites and minerals. I also found that the metal material was not all the same grade, being some had more silicone in the metal, and when taken apart and seperated had too much saturation, leaviing a charge in the slugs/ etc. Mini magnets. I believe Silicon C. Type B has the same saturation propertys as C, but will not hold a charge. There are a few types, and the one I am speaking of Holds a charge. Ultimately I believe they had gotten a batch of different material from their suppliers and low and behold. Too much saturaltion is a bad thing. Narrows the magnetic field too much?
The reason everyone keeps saying " Peel one back and find out? " Well, do just that, and you will see with the naked eye just what is going on. Stare at the naked Bobbins! Look at the center shaft. They are two different sizes, contributing to futher assemetrics in the coils and field, shape of the coils. Does this have any effect? You bet your ass it does......

[Satamax]

So basically, good tone is in the ear of the beholder and that it is quite possible that there are NO bad sounding PAF pickups?

....that's all i wanted to know because i keep hearing here and on other forums that some PAFs sounded like shit....i just wanted to know what made them sound crappy and if there was anything in particular that stood out or were common among all supposedly bad sounding PAFs.


Oh Spence...check this out.... here is your chance...and at an affordable price too!!!


http://cgi.ebay.com/Universal-Windin...QQcmdZViewItem

Kevin, Spence can't buy this machine, it has bad vibes all over saying "Fender"


Well, to back up R.G a bit, we all know that man's hand is far more precise than machines, a mere human is far more reliable and can reproduce the same design over and over without any discrepancies. While machines, even more CNC are completely unable of this. So yes, if the pickups sound soo good, that's because a human being just touched it, and blessed it with it's mojo. And the bad evil foreign pickup makers add play in their CNC machines so they don't reproduce the (American?) human's hand perfection, in fear of loosing their nirvana, and falling back into the bad korma circle.

One fact, everybody thinks a Stradivarius sounds better than every other violin, and for sure far better than modern ones because the modern makers don't know his secrets and the wood is not old! Bullshit i say, in blind tests, most of the time, if you have a strad against a modern extreme high end violin, the people pick up the modern one against the Strad. Even violin players of international class. There's one thing to say for old Antonio Stardivari, it's that his instruments were consistent, which is astonishing, were well made, but he's not the only one. And that they lasted and remained good sounding for something like 4 centuries now. Plus he's the inventor of the modern violin shape, and that's why every musician, even who has only a litle knowlege of european or western music has heard of him.


What will people think of Gibsons or Fenders after 400 years? I bet Gibbies will have stood the time better (Spence, calm down!) But will they still be of any interest to our descendants??? Besides any historical or antique dealer's interest? What will the music then sound like? Arabo asian style? Where's the space for guitar there?

Well, have a good day, dinosaurs

[Possum]

Bad....

well its not that they sounded BAD as in horrible, they just weren't anything to write home about. From my research it was because there was no standardization of parts sources, meaning Gibson even back then was CHEAP and cut corners and went for the good deals from suppliers, just like Leo did. I have evidence that the alloy in the screw poles changed at least twice, god knows how the other steel parts were affected, the steel parts are critical to the tone. The other thing was changes in magnet wire, there was some wire used that Shaw found and Gibson wouldn't pay to have it replicated so his PAFs weren't what they should have been. I know of four different kinds of magnet wire used but only specs on one at the tail end before they went to poly wire. Theres no such thing as a bad magnet, a bad magnet is one that won't hold a charge, any grade of alnico will sound good in a real PAF, the magnet isn't the real secret behind the real deal tone, its just a small part......

[kevinT]

Theres no such thing as a bad magnet, a bad magnet is one that won't hold a charge, any grade of alnico will sound good in a real PAF, the magnet isn't the real secret behind the real deal tone, its just a small part......

Yep, I wasn't clear on this one. I should have said different gauss levels. Did gibson just take them from the brick and insert them without any readings?

[Spence]

You know what, I might just buy that or another Leesona and then I'm gonna be number 1 on You Tube cutting it up with an oxy-actylene torch to the tune of Wango Tango by Ted Nugent.

[R.G.]

Wow! That's dynamite!

well its not that they sounded BAD as in horrible, they just weren't anything to write home about. From my research it was because there was no standardization of parts sources, meaning Gibson even back then was CHEAP and cut corners and went for the good deals from suppliers, just like Leo did.

You know, it almost had to be that way, didn't it? With the business more interested in business stuff like lower cost of production, not tone as long as the guitars sold.

I have evidence that the alloy in the screw poles changed at least twice, god knows how the other steel parts were affected, the steel parts are critical to the tone.

You think that the differences in magnetic hardness and permeability were doing some of it?

The other thing was changes in magnet wire, there was some wire used that Shaw found and Gibson wouldn't pay to have it replicated so his PAFs weren't what they should have been. I know of four different kinds of magnet wire used but only specs on one at the tail end before they went to poly wire.

Do you think it was a weird size of wire or a different insulation? I've seen half-sizes in the small wire gauges.

Theres no such thing as a bad magnet, a bad magnet is one that won't hold a charge, any grade of alnico will sound good in a real PAF, the magnet isn't the real secret behind the real deal tone, its just a small part......

Wow - that's amazing... so steel alloys and wire type are bigger parts?

Do you have any data on what "nothing to write home about" was? Loss of treble? Weak output? Hum pickup? Weak middle? Muddiness? How did they vary?

[NightWinder]

yes.. I posted it in a thread

[NightWinder]

HAHAHAHAHAH!!! I'll fly over and supply the booze and shovel. We should wear masks too....

[JGundry]

One factor is that since a PAF is microphonic the acoustics of the guitar have more effect on the sound. If you have a dark sound PAF in an already dark sounding guitar it may sound terrible. But put the same PAF in a bright sounding guitar and it may be a perfect match. The neck thickness varies quite a bit from guitar to guitar very often and a thicker necked guitar will tend to sound brighter.

The other factor is that I think that it is likely Gibson had more than one winding machine during the PAF era. The way the machine is set up will effect the how the wire is wound on the bobbin even if each had the same turn per layer count. In addition Gibson probably used the the same winder to do PAF's, P-90's, etc.. and each time the machine was re-set-up was another opportunity to inadvertently change the winding characteristics.

Still another factor is magnet variations.

One reason to shy away from any vintage Leesona winder is that it may not have the gear set installed that would be needed to do a PAF. Leesona made a huge number of gear sets for just about any turn per layer count you would want.

[NightWinder]

There are many variables. I think the wind itself was not microphony, but the Cover, and agin, there is a certain pitch when air travels through that wax eliminates. MAgnets- I think we know they were carelessly ripped off the block, and important as well the saturation of the metal as I stated. Gibson was not stupid, buty surely cut corners..