PAFs that sound like sh*t

[R.G.]

Wow, did you ever take that the wrong way. Its not about money,

That's fine, I was just going from what you said. I would not have mentioned money except for that. I was just trying to reassure you that I was not after your livelihood by learning from you and then opening my own pickup business.

its about the work I did and guys like Spence, Gundry and NiteWinder who have done their own exhaustive research work also,

I'm certain that you guys busted both your humps and your wallets doing that, too. I respect that. But like I said, if someone (like me) wants to learn something, the smartest thing to do is to ask someone who knows. All of you guys either could not find someone who knows ('cause I'm sure you're smart enough to have asked them if you could find them) or the people who knew weren't telling; so you went off and dug it out yourselves.

we do share alot of information on the forum, but ya know most of it goes unoticed and unused.

That must be frustrating - pearls before swine.

However, I now have a complete copy of both this and the previous forum's archives. I read a lot.

I have to admit I do find it annoying when someone asks a question that would better be asked by doing their own experiments and work THEN asking about it on the forum, then you got something to build on,

I understand that viewpoint. I sometimes get annoyed when I get the 57th iteration of a beginner's question about effects or amps.

However, let me reassure you that I'm not a fifteen-year-old flogging the forums in a vacuum.

Let me mention a few of my credentials. I'm a formally trained EE, 32 years of practice; I have designed audio equipment as an avocation since I was 16, and since retiring from the corporate world I do it for a living. I've picked up machining and some metallurgy in the last few years. What interests me about pickups is the intersection of electronics, mechanics, field theory, and materials science in such a simple device.

I happen to have annoyed you because I'm at the start of the pickups learning curve. But the pickup winder and pickup test bed I posted links to are under construction out in the shop, although I've modified and enhanced both of them since I made those drawings. I'll be making and testing pickups as soon as they get finished.

I think you guys really do know what you're talking about, that's why I asked you.

I'm capable of understanding this stuff and building my own pickups. But at the same time, I'm not going to set up shop building knockoff of what you do.

I was a single coil guy too until I started working with humbuckers and the ones I make now are very single coil sounding which is what attracted me to PAFs in the first place, now I mostly play buckers, I wouldn't have believe that a couple years ago :-)

It happens. Maybe I'll grow up too.

All the stuff that makes a decent sounding PAF replica has been discussed here on the forum, dig through the archives, its all there, you have to piece it together, you have to spend the money to get pole screws that weren't made in Asia, you have to make your own parts, thats the bottom line. Dig out your checkbook and start flushing money down the toilet because thats what it takes too.

I've already flushed a wad of money on learning things, so I'm no stranger to the process. For instance, I'm curious about whether the BH curve of the pole-pieces and screws makes an audible difference, and whether the the state of temper of the steel makes a difference. I already know that the BH curve of the steel changes as you harden the steel; the harder the steel, the more remanence. US and Japanese

And I'm familiar with Chinese steel, which is an alloy of iron and cheese whiz. If it's any consolation, the Chinese themselves are frustrated with it. The chassis for our amplifiers are made in China. They are stamped, pierced and then tapped at all the screw locations. If you've evern worked with mild steel chassis and threaded holes, you know that you get a handful of screw removals and reinsertions before the screw eats up the threads in the chassis. Working on one sample I was astounded to see that the chassis had stripped the threads off the screw! There was a short frenzy after that one.

But I'm wandering.

Possum - tell me as much or as little as you like. If you're concerned about it being wasted, it won't be.

[R.G.]

Well, I know how much effort Possum's put into his research into PAFs and while I may not agree with all his findings, I certainly don't think that he should have to tell you everything.

You have me wrong as well. If you - or possum or anyone - have something that you feel is your proprietary stuff, great. Don't say a word. None of you owes me a thing.

However, if the forum masters here are interested in sharing anything, it would be downright stupid of me not to ask the guys who know, wouldn't it now?

Come on, admit it - if you were wanting to learn something about, um, maybe rocket science, would you ask someone who knows or go find a cave in the mountains and start reinventing gunpowder?

Besides, can you possibly have missed the implied compliment? The big boys here are the ones who I think know this stuff.

It's got nothing to do with protecting his income into retirement.

It doesn't? Wow, I'm confused, then. He said:
"my intent is still to make a living at this into my retirement years"
I think it was that part that fooled me.

Just because you're on this forum doesn't give you a free pass to other's hard-won information.

Never thought it did. I'm curious about certain things about pickups. They are things that I don't see as having been covered anywhere, and being curious I asked. Say - or don't say - whatever you want. No foul either side, OK? If you don't want to tell me something, don't.

The things I'm interested in don't have much to do with replicating any existing pickup. They might even one day be useful to you masters. Probably not, but as we say back in the Ozark Mountains, sometimes even a blind hog finds an acorn.

On a more trivial level, no one's worried about competition from you anyway.

Cool. We agree on that. I'm no threat at all to any of the masters here, even if I wanted to be.

So any scraps you want to toss my way, I'll appreciate it and say thank you. Anything that's too valuable to say, keep it secret.

[R.G.]

... sob, sob... pass 'em over...

[NightWinder]

Just messin. Trying to be a prakster : )

[R.G.]

No worries, mate (as my friend Tim Taylor used to say). I've been chewed on by experts in my time.

[JGundry]

R.G.,

I'm not sure that some of the others here realize the kind of expertise you might be able to add to the subject.

There really is precious little of any real key information hear about any vintage design. General things concerning construction and suppliers are talked about. But very little when it comes to the tonal tweaks, magnes degaussing, winding pattern etc.. That is just the way it is. I think many here directly communicate with other members and are willing to share if the other member has useful information to share. But putting key information out on an open forum rarely happens.

[Spence]

You have me wrong as well. If you - or possum or anyone - have something that you feel is your proprietary stuff, great. Don't say a word. None of you owes me a thing.

However, if the forum masters here are interested in sharing anything, it would be downright stupid of me not to ask the guys who know, wouldn't it now?

Come on, admit it - if you were wanting to learn something about, um, maybe rocket science, would you ask someone who knows or go find a cave in the mountains and start reinventing gunpowder?

Besides, can you possibly have missed the implied compliment? The big boys here are the ones who I think know this stuff.

It doesn't? Wow, I'm confused, then. He said:
"my intent is still to make a living at this into my retirement years"
I think it was that part that fooled me.


Never thought it did. I'm curious about certain things about pickups. They are things that I don't see as having been covered anywhere, and being curious I asked. Say - or don't say - whatever you want. No foul either side, OK? If you don't want to tell me something, don't.

The things I'm interested in don't have much to do with replicating any existing pickup. They might even one day be useful to you masters. Probably not, but as we say back in the Ozark Mountains, sometimes even a blind hog finds an acorn.

Cool. We agree on that. I'm no threat at all to any of the masters here, even if I wanted to be.

So any scraps you want to toss my way, I'll appreciate it and say thank you. Anything that's too valuable to say, keep it secret.

We're all standing on the shoulders of giants so there's no reason for any of us to be big-headed. If you come up with something new then good luck and I wouldn't expect you to share it with me. Rather I would expect you to patent the idea and set about conquering the World.

Jon Gundry has mentioned that some members on here exchange insider info through private mails and that is true to some extent. Why not put it out there for all to see? Well because there have been plenty of cases of people setting up pickup-making ventures who claim to be the ultimate pickup-makers, when clearly they are simply quoting from this forum and mostly talking bollocks.

[Dave Kerr]

and you figure it's worth a lot of money to you so you're not going to tell anyone

OK, hands up from all the pro winders here with private jets and second homes in Gstaad.

[R.G.]

OK, hands up from all the pro winders here with private jets and second homes in Gstaad.

OK, let me amend that:

and you figure it's worth enough to buy lunch to you so you're not going to tell anyone

I'm still working on that house in Gstaad, too.

[R.G.]

If you come up with something new then good luck and I wouldn't expect you to share it with me. Rather I would expect you to patent the idea and set about conquering the World.

That's too bad if that's how you see it.

I guess it all depends on your viewpoint. I already have come up with ideas that I believe were patentable (no, that's not an uninformed or egotistical viewpoint) and instead plopped them out on my web page for all to see. The most notable example is the Millenium Bypass. This is something I came up with in late 1999, hence the name. It's a trick for getting true bypass plus an LED indicator out of a single DPDT switch. This probably means nothing to you, but it's a big deal in the effects making world. It's on my web page. I believe that the user biasing on my amplifier line is patentable, too, but we decided to leave it public domain.

Odd as it seems, there is an advantage to public disclosure. It keeps someone else from later coming along and patenting the same idea (from their original work or not) and keeping YOU from using your own idea. It's happened. I saw it in the computer world. Patents are a game for the very deep pocketed.

If I came up with an earth shattering new pickup - unlikely to about six decimal places as that is - I'd be more likely to post it on my web page. As I say, I've done it before.

But that's just me. God bless you and you go rule the world if you come up with something patentable.

Jon Gundry has mentioned that some members on here exchange insider info through private mails and that is true to some extent. Why not put it out there for all to see? Well because there have been plenty of cases of people setting up pickup-making ventures who claim to be the ultimate pickup-makers, when clearly they are simply quoting from this forum and mostly talking bollocks.

That's too bad too. I've dealt with my share of get-rich-quick kids. In fact, I've had several people tell me I started the boutique effects revolution by publishing how to build vintage effects, in four part harmony on Geofex. I think that's perhaps a bit exaggerated, because there were as I count something under a dozen boutique effects makers there when I started publishing the world of effects. But there are several hundred of them now with only effects that were first found on GEO.

In any case, I think true quality will rise to the top. None of the Effects-in-a-Flash kids has made a killing that I have seen. Some of them have downright embarassed themselves. I bet that's how it is in pickups, too, but that's just my opinion.

But I'm wandering. Like I said, anything you think is too valuable to share, don't share. It's fine, no problem.

[NightWinder]

I really don't think is like that. It comes down to this: Do you want to make pickups for your friends...MAybe a weekend warrior? How about Part Time? Or, hold on really tight this is going to be a great huge ride!!! Theres more weekend warriors, and less Riders so sometimes it can be a challenge to regain control of a previously damaged thought, or "not so great pickup makers work". Sometimes things can get foggy in the realm of pickups...I honestly think I have developed winding technics that able me to have very consistant repeatable results hand guiding. Sure every one is going to be different, but very close aswell. Alot of trial and error- More error, and there you get one good thing out of a shit load. But some here say, wind them it doesn't matter- "Just Hit Resistance".....Thats cool, that their opinion. We are all different. I honestly would'nt talk about it because it would get taken out of text....It works for me and thats the most important......

[R.G.]

I really don't think is like that. It comes down to this: Do you want to make pickups for your friends...MAybe a weekend warrior? How about Part Time? Or, hold on really tight this is going to be a great huge ride!!! Theres more weekend warriors, and less Riders so sometimes it can be a challenge to regain control of a previously damaged thought,or "not so great pickup makers work".

You know, that's a really valid point. I'm no stranger to that myself. I did a de novo layout of the old Univibe effect and just posted it onto usenet, back in 1994? 1995? Before the web had hit anyway, I'd have to look it up. I got a capacitor backwards, and I still get email about that today. Not wanting to publicly put out something that could be only mostly right but not totally right, that's valid.

What's confused me before your note was the guys who were talking about stuff they seemed to absolutely know and were sure was valuable. Or did I misread those posts?

Never mind, I empathize with the occasional mistake. Your point is perfectly valid.

Sometimes things can get foggy in the realm of pickups...I honestly think I have developed winding technics that able me to have very consistant repeatable results hand guiding. Sure every one is going to be different, but very close aswell. Alot of trial and error- More error, and there you get one good thing out of a shit load. But some here say, wind them it doesn't matter- "Just Hit Resistance".....Thats cool, that their opinion. We are all different. I honestly would'nt talk about it because it would get taken out of text....It works for me and thats the most important......

What works is indeed the most important thing. I do believe that you can come close on successive hand winds. You were dead accurate - a human hand, can with practice do very accurate work. Not exactly the same every time, but very accurate nontheless.

Good point, accurate and honest observation.

[JGundry]

R.G.,

I think part of it is that a pickup is really such a simple system that there is a huge reading of the tea leaves factor. Whenever someone makes a "discovery" they hold it very close to their chest. Since everyone is more or less drawing upon the same parts suppliers this is the main thing one can hold onto to keep a sense of ownership concerning the product you are making. With effects, even if you are doing a clone it is a much more complicated system and there are still plenty of opportunities and choices that can be made to personalize it. With a pickup the choices are much more limited and therefore the stakes for sharing information are much higher.The exception is when people come up with an original design. But most here are doing some variation of a Strat, Tele or PAF pickup.

Also I for one have always worked for myself and when you face everything that goes along with that, health insurance, vacation time, everything that people that work for large companies take for granted, the stakes become much, much higher. Large companies have their employees sign nondisclosure agreements but the little guy does not have that as an option when discussing topics on a forum.

I do think that the good always outshines the bad. But you have to let people know about your good product. That is where a larger company has an advantage over the little guy. The little guy though has the advantage of personalizing their product as something unique to them. Given this it is no wonder that serious small makers want to keep some things to themselves.

[Possum]

now we're cookin'

OK, we've established that you're not an A-hole and have some credentials, so thats a good thing.

MOst of the steel in a PAF is cold rolled steel. SethLover says over and over they used "soft iron." I have asked my screw maker guy what the fluck did "soft iron" mean in 1959? Obviously they didn't use pure iron pole screws or you would see the slots in the heads all chewed up over years and you just don't see that. Plus I don't think you could talk a screw maker into using soft iron for pole screws. I sent him pole screws from P90s from the mid-50s, the early 70s and Tim Shaw's 80s "repros" from the early 80s. He looked at them under a microscope and gave me his opinion. I had pole screws made in that alloy and the next lowest carbon ones, they both sound different, noticably. I also emailed a bunch of labs asking them if they could take a vintage screw and tell me what alloy they were made out of. I got a bunch of answers and methods some real expensive some pretty basic, never followed through on that because the answers were somewhat vague, and I just can't whip out a bunch of vintage screws to destroy without certain results. Maybe you have some ideas on how I can cheaply identify these alloys for dead certain, maybe a Rockwell hardness test? In my opinion the keeper bar and the slugs are different alloys than the screws. I only know that what alloy is used in each of these areas affects the tone very noticeably. If you want a good example go to the hardware store and buy some 3/16" rod off the shelf and make some slugs and put them in your bucker, horrible tone.

I'm very interested in learning what the B/H curve thing and how this test is performced, what gear is used. I know they use these curves in describing magnets as well but my magnet supplier is mostly a sales guy, middleman and he couldn't tell me and I couldn't find any info on the net, probably for lack of knowing what search terms to use, and not being an engineer, I'm a graphic artist and probably old as you except I'm still working my ass off in the hamster wheel :-)

If you want to discuss off forum just hit my website and email from there and put PICKUPS in the subject line.

[NightWinder]

rocket science? LOL.......Its just a vague honest aproach. Undersdtandably too. I fully get it : )