PAFs that sound like sh*t

[madialex]

Spence,

Methinks thou dost protest too much. I feel no need to smooth your ruffled feathers. And lets be clear I never called you an asshole. You are obviously most interested in proclamations rather than discussion. Feel free to take this all as personally as you care to or are prone to.

Frankly I don't take it personally. I think people often get carried away with how they act in forums like this. It is possible that you are a reasonable, mild mannered guy in person. Showing some of that here would be a plus if it is the case.

Here Here, now lets all go to yon pub and have a cold, frothy pint of ale

[Possum]

brain drain....

Thanks for the B/H info, my brain can barely grasp that and obviously its not something probably any of us are going to rig up and try. In my opinion I just don't see Gibson doing anything special with their steels, in a production environment especially back in the 50s, no way are they going to sit around a kiln and aneal batches of screws, slugs and keepers, just no way. If you've ever had any kind of interaction with Gibson on a professional level, they don't work that way. Unfortunately (now that some stuff is coming back to me...) the best way to anneal small steel parts is probably using a kiln and a step timer to graudally reduce the temperature after hitting peak temperature, and as you said the results are probably something barely noticeable. Reminds me of the cryo thing that Callham is so into, why bother?

Gibson for their keepers and slugs used stock off the shelf steel rod sizes. Its hard to find the keeper size in anything but one type of steel alloy these days, its not a common size anymore. So it is possible that variations in tone in old PAFs could have been different batches of steel runs, maybe. Yes they were very inconsistent and thats probably one reason. In a business like that you buy for the best deal, it sure would be nice to know where they were getting this stuff made, or if they had their own machine shop making this stuff and plating etc. but I think not. So obviously whoever they were buying from would be using raw materials from wherever at the best price. So that implies very wide variances in final product. Probably the stuff we can buy today is more consistent, but after all the raw materials aren't made for audio electrical purposes so who knows? As for PAF parts I'd bet money its all cold rolled stuff because it was stock sizes formed the same way they do today.

As for blades from the hardware store yes they can sound good I use them one one pickup I make and not on another. Blades are beasts unto themselves and behave in ways very different from poles. But steel rod from the hardware store I would never use in a pickup, they sound and feel like a constipated robot.

The testing for metallury is just too expensive for me, the spectral stuff I think runs several hundred dollars alone. So I ended up taking the low tech cheap approach, using the machinist's educated guess on the stuff and then trying out parts made of those alloys. I have a customer who isn't a great guitar player but has extremely educated ears who tells me I've nailed the good PAF tone. What does a PAF tone sound like? To me it was those few guitars in recorded history that we all love and they have things in common. And yeah the wood probably had alot to do with it and I don't think any of them were flameys.....

[JGundry]

Peter Green
Mike Bloomfield
Jimmy Page
Eric Clapton Beano
Later Duane Allman

All of the above or considered classic Les Paul tones and are flamey. There are plenty of classic Gold Top Les Paul tones but just because it is a Gold Top does not necessarily mean it was not flamey. Very often the wood under a vintage Gold Top is flamey but with an of center glue seam. From a violin makers standpoint the amount of flame has little to do with the tone. The two variables are the cut of the wood and the specific gravity of the wood. Lighter wood is preferred and a wood cut perfectly on the 1/4 is preferred and will sound the brightest. Slab and rift cut wood will sound darker. If there is a correlation between the maple cap on a Les Paul and tone I would bet it is the cut of the wood and not the flame.

[Spence]

Spence,

Methinks thou dost protest too much. I feel no need to smooth your ruffled feathers. And lets be clear I never called you an asshole. You are obviously most interested in proclamations rather than discussion. Feel free to take this all as personally as you care to or are prone to.

Frankly I don't take it personally. I think people often get carried away with how they act in forums like this. It is possible that you are a reasonable, mild mannered guy in person. Showing some of that here would be a plus if it is the case.

Well, the situation is that I am more than reasonable, more mild-mannered than you'll ever be but I refuse to suffer fools gladly. Your opinions about pickups are just that. You do not have facts at hand just your theories which are somewhat flawed.
I'm certainly not protesting because I couldn't care less whether you've managed to crack the secrets of a PAF or the wonders of a Fuzz Pedal.

I did say I'd be interested to see / hear the results from your yarn winder. Not anymore sunshine because you've just got yourself a nice piece of vintage machinery rather than anything useful. Perhaps you can start a museum and charge a wooden nickel on the door.

[JGundry]

Well, the situation is that I am more than reasonable, more mild-mannered than you'll ever be but I refuse to suffer fools gladly. Your opinions about pickups are just that. You do not have facts at hand just your theories which are somewhat flawed.
I'm certainly not protesting because I couldn't care less whether you've managed to crack the secrets of a PAF or the wonders of a Fuzz Pedal.

I did say I'd be interested to see / hear the results from your yarn winder. Not anymore sunshine because you've just got yourself a nice piece of vintage machinery rather than anything useful. Perhaps you can start a museum and charge a wooden nickel on the door.

Okay Spence. You seem to know quite a bit about foolish behavior. So I will leave you to your expertise. I will discuss pickup making. Feel free to join in when you want to get on topic and really discuss facts vs. opinion. You might see it differently when you are done with your sour grapes.

[corduroyew]

DAMN RIGHT the steel parts hold most of the tone, buy a '57 Classic and rewind it, it ain't gonna sound like your StewMac kit shit, its all in the steel, do your own work.

I've always thought that the steel had to be one of the most important pieces of this puzzle, but I have no idea how to test this. Other than getting my hands on a "good" paf and then playing guess and check with different alloys of steel, how can I figure out what steel they use? I actually have no interest at all in recreating a vintage sounding PAF’s but I do want to further my knowledge on how to manipulate the sound. So how do I figure out what steel to use? And and even bigger question is if I order custom made parts with the right steel, how do I know that they are actually sending me what I ordered? I’ve seen people here get galvanized steel instead of nickel plated, and we all remember when wolfe several thousand poles that looked like that had been in a rock tumbler for months. If the parts makers are going to mess up with size, shape, and plating then we have to assume they are going to mess up with the alloy it’s self at some point. So how do we test it?

[Spence]

Okay Spence. You seem to know quite a bit about foolish behavior. So I will leave you to your expertise. I will discuss pickup making. Feel free to join in when you want to get on topic and really discuss facts vs. opinion. You might see it differently when you are done with your sour grapes.

Jon, I sincerely wish you good luck with your ventures.

I suspect there's nothing of any interest for discussion between yourself and me. You think I'm a fool? Whatever. I think you're a bit of a double-header on times. I won't hold it against you.

I'm not interested in any further discussion with you because I posted a few things on here about PAFs from the My Les Paul Forum that were other people's views about PAFs. You chose to blast in with your single-minded opinions which I questioned. So what's your problem. No one has to agree with you. Get over yourself.

[R.G.]

Thanks for the B/H info, my brain can barely grasp that and obviously its not something probably any of us are going to rig up and try.

It's really not that hard. A sample of your steel with a hole in it, two windings through the hole, a hifi amp driving one coil and an oscilloscope, and you're looking at a B-H curve. Even if you don't have the values in numbers, you can find a steel you like the sound of and use that as a standard - compare the curves, and when they're close, the exact steel values don't matter, the magnetics are similar, by test.

In my opinion I just don't see Gibson doing anything special with their steels, in a production environment especially back in the 50s, no way are they going to sit around a kiln and aneal batches of screws, slugs and keepers, just no way.

No, I'm sure they didn't. They probably had no idea what the steel composition and history did to the pickups. They knew the pickups didn't hum, and that was fine. The difference today is that very discerning guitarists have decades of Gibson's production to choose from and compare side by side and the human ear can be very discerning. We see their good ones and bad ones. They only saw what they were making that day.

Yes they were very inconsistent and thats probably one reason. In a business like that you buy for the best deal, it sure would be nice to know where they were getting this stuff made, or if they had their own machine shop making this stuff and plating etc. but I think not. So obviously whoever they were buying from would be using raw materials from wherever at the best price. So that implies very wide variances in final product. Probably the stuff we can buy today is more consistent, but after all the raw materials aren't made for audio electrical purposes so who knows? As for PAF parts I'd bet money its all cold rolled stuff because it was stock sizes formed the same way they do today.

I think that's dead right!

The testing for metallury is just too expensive for me, the spectral stuff I think runs several hundred dollars alone. So I ended up taking the low tech cheap approach, using the machinist's educated guess on the stuff and then trying out parts made of those alloys. I have a customer who isn't a great guitar player but has extremely educated ears who tells me I've nailed the good PAF tone.

The human ear is a very sensitive test instrument - it's just not well calibrated. I think that finding one that sounds right, then nailing that particular set of variables to the floor is an eminently sensible thing to do.

In many ways my particular itch to know how things vary over the whole range is a much less useful thing to know. It mostly makes me crazy. But I can't stop...

I've always thought that the steel had to be one of the most important pieces of this puzzle, but I have no idea how to test this. Other than getting my hands on a "good" paf and then playing guess and check with different alloys of steel, how can I figure out what steel they use?

You can't.

I actually have no interest at all in recreating a vintage sounding PAF’s but I do want to further my knowledge on how to manipulate the sound. So how do I figure out what steel to use? And and even bigger question is if I order custom made parts with the right steel, how do I know that they are actually sending me what I ordered? I’ve seen people here get galvanized steel instead of nickel plated, and we all remember when wolfe several thousand poles that looked like that had been in a rock tumbler for months. If the parts makers are going to mess up with size, shape, and plating then we have to assume they are going to mess up with the alloy it’s self at some point. So how do we test it?

The differential B/H curve thing comes to mind. In some ways, you don't really care if they got an extra 0.01% carbon in the steel or rolled it 10% more if the magnetics match. The steel composition matters some. The mechanical history matters some too.

You can reset the mechanical history to zero by annealing. That may not be the sound you're looking for, so then you'd be left with trying to hammer (literally) it just the right amount to stress it back to perfect. So annealing is not the end-all, it's just a tool in the tool box.

You can directly measure the B/H curve. Look here.

First find a steel you like the sound of. Measure the B-H curve. Now buy more. Measure that and also re-measure your good stuff. Do they match? If so, the carbon and history don't matter. If they're far different, the sound will be different. Mark the sheets of steel for what was your good standard and what it sounded like. Now buy more good stuff.

[Steve Conner]

So how exactly do you think the B-H curve affects the tone? I don't believe it introduces significant harmonic distortion, because the changes in magnetic field caused by the string motion are so small compared to the standing field of the permanent magnets. You are tracing out a minuscule minor loop on the B-H characteristic that might as well be a straight line.

So to my mind, all the B-H curve can do is affect how much flux the steel gathers from the magnets, and hence the output level of the pickup, and maybe the coil balance of a humbucker.

IOW, I put the gradient of the straight-line approximation to that minor B-H loop into the gain coefficient of my mental pickup model, and we know that the human ear doesn't notice changes less than a few dB in gain. But maybe there are several dB difference in permeability between steels. I bet a pickup with annealed blades of laminated Mu-metal, or Hypersil salvaged from a transformer core, would blow your head off. ;-)

Also, maybe if you are playing an amp on the verge of breakup, another dB of "magnetic gain" could make it break up considerably more and sound a lot juicier.

Eddy current losses in the steel may well be more important, since they start to hit the second-order filter part of the model, and small changes in the resonant peak can be very noticeable. If cold-rolled steel from a hardware store really does make a pickup that sounds like a constipated robot then maybe that is why: low permeability and lots of eddy current losses, making a pickup with weak output and not much of the resonant peak that gives a pickup its characteristic voice.

[JGundry]

Jon, I sincerely wish you good luck with your ventures.

I suspect there's nothing of any interest for discussion between yourself and me. You think I'm a fool? Whatever. I think you're a bit of a double-header on times. I won't hold it against you.

I'm not interested in any further discussion with you because I posted a few things on here about PAFs from the My Les Paul Forum that were other people's views about PAFs. You chose to blast in with your single-minded opinions which I questioned. So what's your problem. No one has to agree with you. Get over yourself.

Spence,

I sincerely wish you luck in your endeavors as well. Many of my posts were in direct response to your questions or posts. So I don't understand all of the name calling and drama. You really don't seem interested in hearing my opinion if it does not agree with yours. You seem to be bent on dissing machine or computer controlled winding which is what seems foolish to me. If the tables were turned and I were dissing hand winding I think you would pitch an even larger fit. Locking yourself out of method of manufacturing largely out of hard headedness does not seem like the best choice for an inquiring mind. It just seems like foolish behavior for someone who is obviously not a fool.

[DoctorX]

B-H loop (hysteresis loop)...

...is how DiMarzio tests their pickups after they leave the assembly area and before they go to packaging (well, they used to -- don't know if they still do). Now, judging from past experience, they may have been using the hysteresis loop test just to make sure the pickup behaved properly -- if there was a hysteresis loop displayed on the oscilloscope in a certain shape for a certain pickup, then all was well, and off to packaging it went. They did have the testing area located in a small closed off room separate from but nearby the assembly area. Signal generators, oscilloscope, voltmeters, etc. The test bench was not as extensive as the bench setup at SD, but did the job. The real R&D was done behind closed doors -- both for security and privacy.

Here is a link to a page which might help explain the B-H loop / hysteresis thing a bit further

http://www.ndt-ed.org/EducationResou...eresisLoop.htm

Come to think of it..it should be possible to see (and by extension, tailor) the frequency response of a pickup with much of the same test gear. Maybe (don't know -- haven't tried it) you could do a frequency response test on a PAF which has the "killer tone" to see if there is anything significant. Add that to your B-H curve testing, and maybe a clearer picture emerges?

DoctorX

[R.G.]

So how exactly do you think the B-H curve affects the tone? I don't believe it introduces significant harmonic distortion, because the changes in magnetic field caused by the string motion are so small compared to the standing field of the permanent magnets. You are tracing out a minuscule minor loop on the B-H characteristic that might as well be a straight line.

Well, I'm not sure. It was a guess based on things I know change. I was actually thinking of the times I messed with magnetic amplifiers and the dramatic change of permeability at the corner of square loop material - which these materials are not, true. It seemed like a fruitful area to dig.

Let me be blindingly clear about this. I am not a pickup expert. I am a pickup neophyte. I'm just guessing based on extending other stuff that I (think) I know. I bring these speculations here for the edification of the true experts...

So to my mind, all the B-H curve can do is affect how much flux the steel gathers from the magnets, and hence the output level of the pickup, and maybe the coil balance of a humbucker.

With a magnet-and-slug bucker, that would affect coil balance as well, wouldn't it?

IOW, I put the gradient of the straight-line approximation to that minor B-H loop into the gain coefficient of my mental pickup model, and we know that the human ear doesn't notice changes less than a few dB in gain. But maybe there are several dB difference in permeability between steels. I bet a pickup with annealed blades of laminated Mu-metal, or Hypersil salvaged from a transformer core, would blow your head off. ;-)

Also, maybe if you are playing an amp on the verge of breakup, another dB of "magnetic gain" could make it break up considerably more and sound a lot juicier.

That would be an interesting thing to try, all right.

Eddy current losses in the steel may well be more important, since they start to hit the second-order filter part of the model, and small changes in the resonant peak can be very noticeable. If cold-rolled steel from a hardware store really does make a pickup that sounds like a constipated robot then maybe that is why: low permeability and lots of eddy current losses, making a pickup with weak output and not much of the resonant peak that gives a pickup its characteristic voice.

Good point. Fortunately, eddy current losses are even easier to predict than B/H. Measure resistivity (that is, resistance of a standard-sized sample) and thickness and you can compute at eddy current losses.

Eddy current prediction is an interesting companion measurement to B/H, maybe better.

So here's another one of the kind of things I was harping on earlier. To predict tone, you need to know the numbers and have some mapping of tone values to measurable quantities. One could well take a magic PAF and measure B/H and resistivity, and then compare that to a mediocre PAF or poor PAF imitation.

Egad. I just added another week of testing to figure out what to test.

We're all on this "the steel matters" topic. If the steel matters, it matters in its magnetic properties, right? Gotta be permeability (i.e. slope of the B/H curve at the bias point) eddy current loss, or flux density and concentration, right? What else is there?

B/H gives you incremental permeability, resistivity plus thickness gives you eddy currents, and a gaussmeter gives you local concentration. Isn't the effect of the steel hidden in those somewhere?

[Possum]

awesome...Dr. X

Thanks for that link I'll be up all nite reading through it :-) Shit, you're gonna make me buy an oscilloscope aren't you, damnit.

So if DeeMarshmellow was using a hysterisis loop test on their pickups to make sure they were in the ball park that sounds very interesting to me in that its actually useable for something. Furthermore it means that a pickup can be easily tested as a unit and not as pieces of steel (which is too complex for me). So, here's what I want to know, how exactly do you set up a test rig to test one pickup with one oscilloscope and what a signal generator? I am a visual person so if someone can diagram this out "for dummies" that would be awesome.

As for frequency response charts, been there done that and they aren't very useful at all. Yes its cool to see how a humbucker and a 5K tele bridge pickup are different from eachother but try it with a humbucker then change the pole screw from one alloy to the next closest alloy and you won't see it but you will surely hear it. Maybe the B/H hysterisis loop thing is the same, small changes might only be visible if you blow them up on a billboard.

There was some talk earlier about electrical iron. Well sounds like something cool to experiment until you actually try to buy some. I found it doesn't come in any kind of useful raw stock sizes for pickup making. So am sure Gibson never used that stuff either. You have to be careful with this theory stuff or you end up making a pickup that is so efficient it sounds like a transistor amp all nice and clean and sparkly and....lifeless. Lace has that problem, great designs, creative use of metals etc. hate 'em.....

[Possum]

eddy currents and steel stock

To answer someone's question about how do you know what you're getting when you buy it, well the answer is you don't. If you think oh it would be cool to make some slugs out of 1004 alloy, well fine, until you try to find it in 3/16" rod and the find someone who will actually sell you less than 100lbs of it. There are only certain widely available steel alloys available to small purchasers. So this is one reason I doubt Gibson used any exotic materials or did any exotic annealing etc.

Yes in my opinion alot of the tone comes from the steel, but like the alloys in magnets I think the most apparent tone effects come from the eddy currents. And you have to count whats happening in the coil too with eddy currents.

this discussion on steels and B/H curves is awesome and I'm glad we got some people here who can explain it and maybe how to DO it.

What got me started on the steel thing is I started out using GJ's parts and then started thinking about Seth's soft iron thing; I heard that SM's pole screws are softer so bought some and swapped them out and instantly the tone changed in a nicer way to my ear. I had 10,000 pole screws made according to knowledge I obtained with hard work and had them made in two side by side alloys and I started getting the tones I was looking for, and both sounded different. So, if you're a hobbyist you're stuck with SM, GJ, and AllParts for screws but they all sound different, never tried APs though. For us who sell pickups we're stuck when what alloys we can find in the right size stock and who will be willing to sell us $100 worth, which is damn few. So thats the reality of it, and you really don't know what you're getting and next time it might be different. So this B/H curve might help spot that kind of thing. PIckup making can get awful damn complicated the more you get ito the physics of it, some think this stuff is useless and just swap out parts and use their ears, that works, but for guys like me I like to understand WHY things work the way they do, its more fun that way....

[R.G.]

Thanks for that link I'll be up all nite reading through it :-) Shit, you're gonna make me buy an oscilloscope aren't you, damnit.

Bwahh-hah-hah-ha!!!

So if DeeMarshmellow was using a hysterisis loop test on their pickups to make sure they were in the ball park that sounds very interesting to me in that its actually useable for something. Furthermore it means that a pickup can be easily tested as a unit and not as pieces of steel (which is too complex for me). So, here's what I want to know, how exactly do you set up a test rig to test one pickup with one oscilloscope and what a signal generator? I am a visual person so if someone can diagram this out "for dummies" that would be awesome.

That's why I posted the link to the circuit in my note of 8:45 AM.

As for frequency response charts, been there done that and they aren't very useful at all. Yes its cool to see how a humbucker and a 5K tele bridge pickup are different from eachother but try it with a humbucker then change the pole screw from one alloy to the next closest alloy and you won't see it but you will surely hear it. Maybe the B/H hysterisis loop thing is the same, small changes might only be visible if you blow them up on a billboard.

That's possible too. I reminded y'all (as we say here) that it's only a theory. But I think it's worth looking at until someone can exclude.

There was some talk earlier about electrical iron. Well sounds like something cool to experiment until you actually try to buy some. I found it doesn't come in any kind of useful raw stock sizes for pickup making. So am sure Gibson never used that stuff either. You have to be careful with this theory stuff or you end up making a pickup that is so efficient it sounds like a transistor amp all nice and clean and sparkly and....lifeless. Lace has that problem, great designs, creative use of metals etc. hate 'em.....

Yep - the only market for electrical iron is transformer and motor makers and so the industry doesn't make it in sizes convenient for other people. It's one facet of what I call MBA Disease - ONLY make what you can sell a zillion of and let the small markets go hang.

As to clean and sparkley: dirt is easy to add, several ways. Getting the right dirt isolated is difficult. One path to the right dirt is removing all varieties of dirt and then adding back in the one you want, instead of sifting mixed dirt to get the right one.