Does hand winding mean hand on the wire?

[mkat]

Well I don't know... But I do know that there are machine wound pickups that sound great. I've never heard a Duncan pickup I didn't like. I might not use some of them, but they have a good tone. I don't think they hand wind all of them... just the Antiquities? (I know Seymour signs those pickups).

Personally I'm interested in the end results. If I could do that on a machine and they sound the way I want them to, that's a good thing I think. But that's just me... I like using power tools and jigs and stuff to build things, even if I can do it by hand. I like the repeatability.

Yes, I was actually thinking of the Antiquities in my initial post above. Someone has stated that they unwound one in another post, which kind of answered my question. I have two here, a series 1 and 2. The series 2 is machine wound, as expected but I'm seeing some advertising that it's hand wound. The series 1 (there's a grey hair on it) looks machine wound also. It's dissappointing that the claim is made, especially of the series 1. Now, the series 2 sounds good, haven't heard the series 1 yet, but it's the claim that becomes an issue. Maybe some sets were "handwound", I don't know. I agree with KevinT's comments above. What were are seeing is that there is disclosure, but the disclosure can be vague and anything but the truth.

As a player, I don't really care whether they are machine or hand wound either, as long as they sound great to me in a particular setting and are responsive. For example, the pickups I made that I used as replacements for stock machine wound pickups sound much better than the stock, and these are prototypes. Ofcourse, wire and parts make a difference too.

I think the fact that we can't humanly repeat an exact scatter from one pickup to another, and yet they will sound consistent if all other things are equal, has to be an indicator that as long as you replicate the hand winding process within some kind of tolerance, the pickups should sound like the ones you wound by hand.

I haven't been winding long, but this is what I see with the pickups I make. I have a design and I try to go for that and vary it for experimenting. There is no way I can replicate a wind, and I'm still experimenting with tensioning, but I'm in the ball park (hopefully it's not to big a park), so the tolerance differs. I think maybe Possum's adivce on the inductance meter will help with consistency and design, at least with readable variables.

We need control over tension. Maybe. Perhaps with some kind of feedback control based on an algorithm.

Then there's the scatter pattern. That shouldn't be too hard to replicate. And it can include a randomness factor, where it cross fades to a few algorithms. At the very least don't lay the wire in neat rows next to each other. Maybe skip a few rows and then vary that.

Then keep the speed keyed into the rest of the winding process.

I guess one could program coil shapes too... maybe you want a bulge in the middle?

I bet Possum has some insight in these things, since he has a spiffy programable winder he designed.

Yes, it would be nice to know the issues that some are experiencing with these machines. I'm not into mechanics and don't have much experience with the required devices. But software wise, designing and writing applications, libraries and various interfaces to devices, this and more is possible. It all depends on how far you want to go, what you want to achieve.

[JGundry]

Duncan Antiquity humbuckers are not hand wound. I don't know about the single coils though.

[mkat]

The single coils.

[J S Moore]

Definition of:

by hand - manually

manual- done by, used by or operated with the hands

automatic - operating with minimal human intervention, independant of external control

By these definitions "hand wound" and "hand guided" need direct human involvement in the process.

Using a machine for the process cannot be considered "hand wound " or "hand guided" regardless of where the original information is garnered from ( external control).

[R.G.]

Definition of:
by hand - manually
manual- done by, used by or operated with the hands
automatic - operating with minimal human intervention, independant of external control
By these definitions "hand wound" and "hand guided" need direct human involvement in the process.
Using a machine for the process cannot be considered "hand wound " or "hand guided" regardless of where the original information is garnered from ( external control).

Aye, Webster would be proud.

But here's the question: I have here in my virtual hands two coils, one having been wound by a person's hands, the second by a machine duplicating what the person's hands did, movement by movement.

Is the second one hand-wound?

Before you answer, remember that the second coil was wound by a machine controlled by the person's hands in every detail. The machine just has a very good memory and can remember the person's hand movements perfectly many times. I think it's arguable that the person's hands are intimately involved in the machine wound process - every time.

It's also arguable that this is blatant opportunism, and that the second is purely machine wound. And that both are simultaneously correct.

But does it matter when you play them and they both sound the same?

[JGundry]

Aye, Webster would be proud.

But here's the question: I have here in my virtual hands two coils, one having been wound by a person's hands, the second by a machine duplicating what the person's hands did, movement by movement.

Is the second one hand-wound?

I would say they are both hand wound. There is no tonal benefit to inefficiency in this scenario.

[J S Moore]

The second coil is machine wound by definition. Programming the machine is external control. Once programmed the machine runs itself. External control also includes pushing the on button or turning a rheostat.

There seems to be confusion in this debate between method and result. I can drive to work or take the bus. If the bus follows the same route as I would drive, can I rightly say I drove myself when I took the bus because the result was the same?

[JGundry]

The second coil is machine wound by definition. Programming the machine is external control. Once programmed the machine runs itself. External control also includes pushing the on button or turning a rheostat.

There seems to be confusion in this debate between method and result. I can drive to work or take the bus. If the bus follows the same route as I would drive, can I rightly say I drove myself when I took the bus because the result was the same?

It's a question of who controls the choices not a question of destination. Both coils may have exactly 5000 turns but the question is who decides what will happen to all of the turns between 1 and 5000. In that case both a real time hand wind and a replay by a machine using of a real time recording and subsequent play back of the exact same winding pattern are the same.

[J S Moore]

Yes, the result would be the same. The original question was does that make it hand wound. The playback of the original recording to control the machine is external control making it automated and not controlled by hand. That leads back to my statement about taking the bus.

[David Schwab]

Using a machine for the process cannot be considered "hand wound " or "hand guided" regardless of where the original information is garnered from ( external control).

But...

by hand - manually

manual- done by, used by or operated with the hands

So if "by hand" is "manually", and "manual" means "operated with the hands" then operating a machine with the hands is hand wound!

I'm operating my winder by hand. A hand drill has a motor, right?

Maybe we should say "hand made"?

The other thing is in the electronics field, a machine wound coil is totally machine wound. No hand guiding at all.

[David Schwab]

But here's the question: I have here in my virtual hands two coils, one having been wound by a person's hands, the second by a machine duplicating what the person's hands did, movement by movement.

It's kind of like "is riding a bike to hand winding what riding a motorcycle is to machine winding?"

A bike is powered by the feet, but it isn't walking...

I say the second coil is machine wound in a hand winding style.

I also think the kind of pickups that we don't like, that are machine wound, are just not wound correctly. If scatter is better than neat rows of wire, then bad machine wound pickups are wound the way an inductor would be, which doesn't work well with pickups.

[J S Moore]

David, it would really be hand operated. A hand drill does have a motor but depends on human intervention to do the job. This machine as described requires no such thing.

Really the issue seems to be: Can he second coil be claimed to be made by a process by which it is not? The answer would be no.

If I could replicate every nuance of a machine wind by hand it would still be hand wound.

On a side note, why is it that I have to log out to access all the pages in this post? When I log in I can only see up to page 3, or post 38. Is it something with my settings? I've never been on any other forum that's worked that way.

[mkat]

A machine wound coil is not hand wound, it's machine wound that simulates hand winding patterns and such. To say otherwise is deceptive. It would seem that the term "hand wound" appears to be more credible than "machine wound". Anyone who wants cost reduction in manufacturing can spin it anyway they like. If machine wound or hand wound simulations sounds great, then shouldn't they be marketed as such? Anything can be spun in a positive way, even though the opposite is obvious. Look at all the BlSt marketing around us for crap products. So, what's the bottom line on the selling point?

[JGundry]

If one had a machine that could record and play back a hand wind in real time that would still give the consumer a unique product unique to that maker but with the consistency of a machine wound product. I don't see how any of that could be considered a negative or require a lower price to the consumer. There would be a larger equipment investment and the extra time could go into R & D. Is the consumer better served by having less consistent product with a potentially longer wait time?

I don't realistically have this capability. The programming time would be huge. But if one did, just think of the kind of precise experimentation it would allow. I still maintain if the wire was guided in real time by hand and simply recorded and the pattern played back it is still a hand wound pickup. One could state that their winding system allowed unparalleled experimentation and better quality control when compared to "traditional or archaic" hand winding but that "modern hand winding" with the aid of a computer was superior in all respects. This I think would be a fair description. OOOh I can almost hear blooding boiling.

[mkat]

If one had a machine that could record and play back a hand wind in real time that would still give the consumer a unique product unique to that maker but with the consistency of a machine wound product. I don't see how any of that could be considered a negative or require a lower price to the consumer. There would be a larger equipment investment and the extra time could go into R & D. Is the consumer better served by having less consistent product with a potentially longer wait time?

Ok, so the unique product would benefit by marketing it as such, especially in the longer term because you no longer need to rely on the word "hand" in an attempt to convince buyers it's a good pickup. Equipment costs money, but when you increase production and sales it starts to level out. But no, I wasn't thinking of the consumer end or anything negative, but the eventual profit on the manufacturing side.

I don't realistically have this capability. The programming time would be huge. But if one did, just think of the kind of precise experimentation it would allow. I still maintain if the wire was guided in real time by hand and simply recorded and the pattern played back it is still a hand wound pickup.

I know you do , but it's not hand wound. It's simulated, automated, machine wound. A human may have turned on the switch, or that could also be programmed in line with the automated production schedule...

One could state that their winding system allowed unparalleled experimentation and better quality control when compared to "traditional or archaic" hand winding but that "modern hand winding" with the aid of a computer was superior in all respects. This I think would be a fair description. OOOh I can almost hear blooding boiling.

Ha, ha, well, it's in the marketing. There will be division as long as hand wound pickups are made. But it may give machine wound pickups their own identity so to speak, rather than a reliance on using the word "hand" as a selling point. The machine incorporates so called human patterns.