Does hand winding mean hand on the wire?

[David Schwab]

I wouldn't pay extra for a boutique pickup unless it was a crazy looking work of art.

Taa Daa! There you go. I'm interested in the sound of the pickup, and unless the way it was manufactured played a part in that tone, I couldn't care less if it was someone holding the bobbin in their hand, or some wiz-bang machine that also makes espresso!

In the work I'm doing, I'm more interested in coil shape, cores, the magnet circuit, and such. Then I need to get wire on the coil form. Small coils suffer less from Lenz' Effect, and I think that's where scatter winding helps too. It's all that self inductance and capacitance going on between wraps.

[kevinT]

But how do you set yourself apart from the rest?

So you need something to differentiate your product from the mass produced stuff out there. So "hand wound" is good marketing, and evokes the feeling that the pickups are made the way they "used to be" made, even if that's not true. Everyone wants old guitars now... even if they are fake old guitars.

You are totally 100% correct and i thought about this earlier and agree with you. And i totally understand where the handwinders are coming from (It still is tacky, IMO, to degrad one method of pickup winding over the other to take advantage of an inaccuracy or the public's trusting nature in believing this falacy). I also know that "handwound" is the BIG Buzz word that gets folks excited about pickups these days. However, I think it's a matter of time before it won't carry as much clout, in terms of using it in marketing, because there are so many winders out there that hand wind pickups.

Despite what other folks think, I truly think Jon has a unique marketing angle with the Leesona that i think will work for him if he does it right (by the way Jon, I could of beat you to the Leesona and not listed it on the forum and just bought it myself. Unfortunately, I have too many other projects going on to bring on the Leesona project. I'm in the process of refocusing my business in 2008 to 100% pickups wound by machine or hand or maybe a hybrid of both. ...one coil wound by machine and one coil wound by hand...)

IMO, I think that you're going to see more and more pickup makers attempting to stand out from the crowd...Whether with vintage wire or winding with a vintage machine or product features like nitewinder's custom covers.

[Sam Lee Guy]

Now Sam plenty confused! So if Luke Skywinder made pickups using his robotic hand (remember his dad Darth chop it off with light sabre) would it be handwound? handmade? How about Lee Majors? If he make pickups whilst waiting for call from Oscar Goldman, are ones made with left hand handwound, and ones made superfast with right hand machine wound?
I remember Seymour saying that benefit from hanwound is that strings vibrate in eliptical pattern so winding in eliptical pattern around bobbin pickup more subtlety from how string is plucked, also scattered pattern lose less very high (maybe even inaudible) frequencies through capacitance between turns and scatter wind produce slightly higher voltage. Maybe he right and it is just pattern that matters and not how wire got to that pattern, but mabe there more magic that we understand? Plenty confusing but plenty good that everyone think something different.

[Mark Hammer]

There are two, or maybe even more, things being confounded in this thread.

One of them is the question of what the threshold is, or criteria are, for classifying something as "hand-wound", depending on the form of any mechanical assistance provided.

Another is the issue of what hand-induced alterations in coil properties/qualities exist.

Another is the issue of the replicability of any hand-movements, whether by machine or by the hands that made them in the first place.

To my way of thinking, another is the question of whether the term "hand-wound" should signify anything important and consistent to the customer. Given all the hoopla about scatter and such, is it even theoretically possible to truly hand-wind pickups and make any particular promise to the consumer? In other words, if "true" hand-winding inparts a certain random and nonreplicable quality to the tone, then how the hell does the customer know what they would be getting before they get it?

Here is my hypothetical ad copy: "Potluck pickups are 100% hand-wound by my own arthritic cortisone-injected hands. They will give you a distinctive sound, but you won't know what is distinctive about yours until you install it. Here are 10 samples of recent pickups I have wound. C'mon. Take a chance on Potluck! We promise they will usually be good enough, or your money back."

Pretty dang persuasive, huh? I can't see too many makers staying in business with that sort of strategy.

So ultimately, the question becomes that of "What permits a maker to provide a consistent product to consumers with knowable, predictable, and demonstrable characteristics?" Yes, there is magic in the older hand-wound coils, but they tend to be found on the guitars of similar vintage and the tone people relish is a product of being already on a known instrument, not something purchased sound-unheard via a website. So can you make your pickups "the Amish way" and make good on a promise when the customer gets the Fedex box and pops it in their Squier Tele, or will they be sent back a little too often to keep your business afloat?

This brings us to the next question, which is the one many here have raised throughout this thread: Can I preserve/mimic/replicate some, most or even all of the attributes of a truly hand-wound coil in a mechanical fashion that allows me to make fulfillable promise to my customer?

[David Schwab]

They could probably get away with that in most countries as a legal definition of "hand wound". And that would, of course, quickly devalue "hand wound" as the description of a pickup.

Earlier in this thread I pointed out that "hand knit" sweaters and other knitwear are not really hand knit in the way you would expect. Its not some lovely old granny sitting there with two knitting needles and a ball of yarn. It's a person operating a knitting loom. It is legal to say "hand knit" because a person is moving the carriage by hand. It's a hand operated machine.

From Wikipedia:

The knitting machine, sometimes called knitting frame, knitting loom, or hand knitting machine, is used to produce knit fabrics on a fixed bed of hooked needles. Knitting machines can be hand powered or motor assisted. Pattern stitches can be selected by hand manipulation of the needles, or with push-buttons and dials, mechanical punch cards, or electronic pattern reading devices and computers.

[JGundry]

Despite what other folks think, I truly think Jon has a unique marketing angle with the Leesona that i think will work for him if he does it right (by the way Jon, I could of beat you to the Leesona and not listed it on the forum and just bought it myself. Unfortunately, I have too many other projects going on to bring on the Leesona project. I'm in the process of refocusing my business in 2008 to 100% pickups wound by machine or hand or maybe a hybrid of both. ...one coil wound by machine and one coil wound by hand...)

I do appreciate that you posted the link for the Leesona. I knew enough about the machine to know that if it did not have the right gear set it would be a pointless purchase. But a little quick research revealed it had been retrofitted with a variable speed traverse. Even still it was a big risk. It was abandoned by one freight place that refused to take it further because they were afraid the irregular shape would damage other packages. Then the new freight company doubled the price. Then I had to get it to my second floor office space in a building with no loading dock. But thankfully it is in place and works.

From a purely marketing angle machine winding holds more promise that hand winding IMO simply because of the glut of hand winders out there. It has to be a confusing and overwhelming choice for the consumer to pick a hand winder. This is certainly not the reason to choose one over the other though. You first have to be able to make a pickup you are thrilled with whether machine or hand wound. Certainly there is marketing plus to have the Leesona as it relates to PAF clones but if I were doing a vintage Fender style single coil it would not have an advantage over hand winding. But it is a mistake to think that machine winders simply stick a bobbin on the machine and punch a button. There are many more choices that have to be made that effect the coil. Some of these choices are not even an option with hand winding which is on of the advantages of using a machine.

[madialex]

Look:

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Him in the Pic kinda ruins the extras in the shot. But what you can see of the girls, all I can say is

[Spence]

Bear in mind that 'handwinding' has always been done with a motor spinning the bobbin, why should it be called anything else now. For sure it was inappropriately named to start with but that's not my fault. The thing is, if it's your method of winding then you have to use a term that people understand to represent a method they are familiar with.

I'm ready for the Asian influx and have been for years.
Quality wins through in the end and always will.

[JGundry]

I'm ready for the Asian influx and have been for years.
Quality wins through in the end and always will.

I totally agree with this. If you have a unique, high quality product to offer then the premium customer is who you should target. Leave the bargain basement market to the sweat shops. The individual maker can never compete with that and would not want to anyway.

[R.G.]

I'm ready for the Asian influx and have been for years.
Quality wins through in the end and always will.

Absolutely!

Just look at what's happened to the steel industry, the auto industry, the semiconductor fab industry, the clothing industry, consumer electronics, just for starters. No way any lower cost stuff can ever replace the buyer's need for solid quality. There's no future in low cost alternatives at all.

[Spence]

Absolutely!

Just look at what's happened to the steel industry, the auto industry, the semiconductor fab industry, the clothing industry, consumer electronics, just for starters. No way any lower cost stuff can ever replace the buyer's need for solid quality. There's no future in low cost alternatives at all.

People in the know will always search for quality. No low-cost alternative is a direct substitute for the simple reason that they use low-cost materials too.
You can't buy a British car anymore unless you've got pots of money. We stopped making cheap cars and now only make expensive ones.

[R.G.]

People in the know will always search for quality. No low-cost alternative is a direct substitute for the simple reason that they use low-cost materials too.
You can't buy a British car anymore unless you've got pots of money. We stopped making cheap cars and now only make expensive ones.

I couldn't agree more. The US auto industry is following the British example. We'll show those no-account low-quality imports! Eventually, the US auto industry will only have to sell ONE car per year, but it will cost more and make more profit than the millions of imported ones.

That'll show 'em!

Bring it on.

[Possum]

devil's advocate...

well you're also hugely ignoring the facts of life here in some industries. Remember back when Japanese cars first started appearing in the US? We called them "rice burners" and most of them were crap. I vagely remember Honda's first entry, it was like a kiddie car, a tiny thing with practically a lawn mower motor in it. Now look where they are, most US vehicles are crap compared to Japanese products. Korean cars used to be junk now they are becoming a major force over here. Remember the first Chinese guitars you ever saw? Bowed necks, stuff falling of etc. Well there's still alot of that but shit, man, I got a Michael Kelly archtop that puts the Epiphone Joe Pass model in the dust, its total faultless, faultless fret job, plays like a dream, pickups sucked but not any worse than any Epiphone junk. Anyway, just pointing out that mass market stuff can be very good. I do think however that small pickup makers will always have the edge because mass market stuff can't be made with the care and detail or knowledge that one guy in a barn with a soldering iron can do. But mark my words people, we'll be driving Chinese cars in the next ten years and they will be GOOD.

[MarkSams57]

Greetings from Texas. I’m a build addict who decided on a whim to try my hand at rolling, er, winding my own. I discovered quickly I was in over my head. I now have a decent machine and have successfully gotten 8k winds on 2 pickups. They don’t work but by god I finally figured out how to keep from breaking wire or missing a wind and having to cut it all off. I have tried unsuccessfully to splice wire, I am glad to have found several suggestions in this thread. I am still having a problem with tension and the wire is pretty loose, and I’m sure that with continued practice I’ll get a feel for it. So far I’m just using my hands and baby powder. I hold the wire coming off the spool on the floor with my left and guide the wire past the tensioner arm with my right using my index finger to move it back and forth so that it has an even spread. The machine’s builder suggests cotton to help add some friction without breakage. It has a smoothly adjustable speed control. I am using Stewmac flatwork and slugs, and .42 awg. The cast plastic Chinese bobbins are cheap and easy but seem to snag more easily and have no “tab” making it easier to make initial and final connections. My question is; what is a good technique for making the initial and final connections. I suspect this is another area where I’m failing. Can that be reinforced by using some lead wire in the initial and last winding? Also will acetone remove the coating so I can splice until I figure out what I’m doing? Thanks for any indulgences from the pros.

[Steve Blackdog]

Hello and welcome to the forum. There are some super clever people on this forum who will be happy to help.

it is probably better to start a new thread, but, here’s my approach. I don’t have any special equipment, as I wind pickups as and when I need to (not often). I use a variable speed lathe with a bobbin hot glued or double sided taped to a plate. If you are using wire that had a varnish coat or poly coat, there are probably different methods. I use poly coated. I find it easiest to scrape off the coating and tin/solder the starting end, before anything else. Make sure you have plenty of tinned end to play with. Tape the tinned end of that it doesn’t interfere with anything.


When you finish wind the last bit by hand leaving a long tail so you can scrape off the coating and tin it, and if you break it, no big deal.

this is my self taught approach. Many will no doubt have better methods.

all the best


steve