Is it possible to accurately describe the tone of magnets and/or pickups?

[bbsailor]

It is really easy to observe a plucked strings visual vibrations being damped by moving a hand held magnet near the string and even feel the string vibrations in the fingers holding the magnet due to damping energy transfer from the vibrating string. Eddy currents in various Alnico magnet types will vary and roll off some harsher higher harmonics and add a sound that some people call xxxxxxxxxxxx (fill in your own word(s) here).

Here is a web link that discusses the Alnico vs Ceramic magnets used in guitar pickups from an engineering perspective. https://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=105845

I hope this puts this issue into a more observable and scientific perspective that pickup builders can use to achieve the desired sound goal.

Leo Fender had a goal to make guitars that sounded good through his amps with enough output to drive the amp for a good musical sound and limited noise. We are still using a pickup technology that is similar to what was invented a long, long time ago but we now have a scientific vocabulary and test equipment to break it down into more technical details. Our current gap is: how is what we call our subjective and marketing characteristics of a pickup sound backed up by objective science?

Joseph J. Rogowski

[Helmholtz]

It is really easy to observe a plucked strings visual vibrations being damped by moving a hand held magnet near the string and even feel the string vibrations in the fingers holding the magnet due to damping energy transfer from the vibrating string.

Your experiment confirms my statement regarding string damping via magnetic coupling to a movable load (magnet or PU).
Please see my post #24.

[Helmholtz]

That is clearly the case - just forgot to put it into the list of variables. Several well-known pup makers advertise models with 'degaussed' magnets.

I think that there are two effects:

1. The interaction of the poles and strings changes and
2. The small loop hysteresis losses vary with position on the demagnetization curve.

Did you receive my reply to your PM?
I have the impression that the reply function to PMs does not work. Also all of my sent items have disappeared from the box.

[Antigua]

Over here we use springs in pull, push and push-pull applications . For pure pull operation some bias force is applied (stretching). This won't change the energy balance.

You say a spring captures and releases energy, but I don't see the magnet capturing or releasing any energy in this context.

Asymmetry influences the vibrational pattern of the string, but I cannot see an influence on the decay of vibrational energy. A spinning top is a completely different problem, it has more degrees of freedom and is not comparable to a vibrating string.

When you have asymmetry there will be some beating with the harmonics. The question is, does that resultant beating, or wave interference, decrease the duration of the standing wave? In my own testing, when you have so much string pull that "stratitus" is audible, the sustain is also noticeably reduced at that point.

Somewhat hard to tell without further explanation. But if so, the PU must have been vibrating with increasing intensity.

What's this talk about the pickup vibrating? As far as I know, the is pickups is/was perfectly still, unable to move vertically in relation to the strings.

[Helmholtz]

You say a spring captures and releases energy, but I don't see the magnet capturing or releasing any energy in this context.

The potential energy is stored in the magnetic field. A changing distance changes the field and the potential energy. I can't see it either, but this is in the nature of potential energy.

The question is, does that resultant beating, or wave interference, decrease the duration of the standing wave?

The answer is "no".

What's this talk about the pickup vibrating? As far as I know, the is pickups is/was perfectly still, unable to move vertically in relation to the strings.

I don't think you would notice the tiny vibration of the PU. If there was increasing string damping, the PU must have been vibrating. An immovable PU or magnet can not damp the string.

If you don't believe me, just ask any physicist you trust.

[mozz]

Single coil strat pickups can be mounted with springs or rubber tubing. Anyone hear that difference? I have heard some people can tell. I think, when you have these nodes, some will get absorbed by the nut, some by the bridge, if not absorbed, reduced and transferred. What nodes or frequencies are absorbed depends on the guitar components makeup. Maybe a brass nut works better with A2 magnets and a bone nut works better with A5, there are too many variables and better is subjective.

[Helmholtz]

Single coil strat pickups can be mounted with springs or rubber tubing. Anyone hear that difference? I have heard some people can tell. I think, when you have these nodes, some will get absorbed by the nut, some by the bridge, if not absorbed, reduced and transferred. What nodes or frequencies are absorbed depends on the guitar components makeup. Maybe a brass nut works better with A2 magnets and a bone nut works better with A5, there are too many variables and better is objective.

If you want to use use particularly strong magnets and/or very close string to PU distance it seems advisable to mount the PUs directly and rigidly to the wood for max. sustain.

[ric]

Single coil strat pickups can be mounted with springs or rubber tubing. Anyone hear that difference? I have heard some people can tell. I think, when you have these nodes, some will get absorbed by the nut, some by the bridge, if not absorbed, reduced and transferred. What nodes or frequencies are absorbed depends on the guitar components makeup. Maybe a brass nut works better with A2 magnets and a bone nut works better with A5, there are too many variables and better is objective.

I doubt I could tell in a blind test if a PU had the rubber tubing. I figure livelier is better, not damped, so I always use springs. But as (I think you meant) to say, that's subjective.

Would you (or anyone) care to bring me up to speed on A2/ A5 tonal differences? If that fits in this thread. I thought it was lower number= smoother/ higher= grittier.

[ric]

If you want to use use particularly strong magnets and/or very close string to PU distance it seems advisable to mount the PUs directly and rigidly to the wood for max. sustain.

G.E. Smith would seem to agree with you, as that's how he spec'ed his signature Tele. I imagine there are other examples.

[Antigua]

The idea that the strings cause the pickup to move is absurd. First, the magnetic coupling is very weak, so the magnemotive force upon the pickup by way of the strings is very small. Second, the pickup is much heavier, and mounted to a solid object, giving it a much higher inertia than the strings, by orders of magnitude. To the extent that damping occurs through that interaction, it would be on a nanoscopic scale.

[Helmholtz]

The idea that the strings cause the pickup to move is absurd. First, the magnetic coupling is very weak, so the magnemotive force upon the pickup by way of the strings is very small. Second, the pickup is much heavier, and mounted to a solid object, giving it a much higher inertia than the strings, by orders of magnitude. To the extent that damping occurs through that interaction, it would be on a nanoscopic scale.

Well, you are the expert.

[Antigua]

Well, you are the expert.

"Appeal to authority" logical fallacy. Nobody's claims to expertise are of any relevance here.

Why don't you make a case for how the movement of the pickup in relation to guitar string's magnetic coupling could possibly have any practical or audible consequences?

[Helmholtz]

Why don't you make a case for how the movement of the pickup in relation to guitar string's magnetic coupling could possibly have any practical or audible consequences?

Why don't you ask sensible questions, taking into account what I already explained?

[mozz]

"The idea that the strings cause the pickup to move is absurd."

Ok, if i put a magnet (or a pickup) on a scale (measuring grains, such as a reloading scale), place a guitar string above it, pluck the string, you are telling me the scale readout will not change? I can see it going lower as the string moves away and the magnet wants to follow the string. Most single coil and humbuckers are not mounted to anything solid, they are suspended.


As to magnet tone, in single coils i have found A3 not as bright as A5. Best way i can describe it was they would be good for a rhythm or backup guitar player. Turning the volume down to 7 or 8, hiding some of your mistakes. I didn't really like them at first, but they definitely grew on me. If i was recording i would want a strat there with a set of A3's along with other guitars.

[ric]

As to magnet tone, in single coils i have found A3 not as bright as A5. Best way i can describe it was they would be good for a rhythm or backup guitar player. Turning the volume down to 7 or 8, hiding some of your mistakes. I didn't really like them at first, but they definitely grew on me. If i was recording i would want a strat there with a set of A3's along with other guitars.

Thanks for that, mozz. Sounds like A3 is an allrounder, at least as far as single coils go, and that's where I spend almost all my time when I play.

Now about this ability to cover mistakes... man, I found my magnets! $-)