bass response and coil mismatch....

[David Schwab]

It has everything to do with the pickup, because the position of the slug coil is such that it picks up up a thicker tone than the screw coil -- for the very reason you say: more lows as you move toward the middle of the string and more highs as you move toward either of the two ends. (Though yes, slug coils are a bit hotter because of less vertical dissipation of the magnetic field.)

Yes, absolutely correct. And to Jon too... I wasn't disagreeing with that. My point is that depending on where you pick, you will get a huge change in tone. You can put a single coil at the neck position, and then pick an inch from the bridge, and an inch from the neck. Hear the difference? You haven't moved the coil. On the other hand, wire up a bridge humbucker and switch either coil in or out (wire the center series connection to either ground or hot). Now listen... there is a difference, but not as drastic as moving where the string is plucked. I have some basses with only a bridge pickup, so you learn to get a bunch of tones by where you pluck the string, and they are as drastic as moving the pickup. So I think the effect is doubled.

I agree the screw and slug coils sound different, and covers make it more so. Steve Howe used to flip his bridge pickups around so that the screws were facing the neck. He said it gave him "more tone, and less treble". So that's implying the screw coil is brighter, which I think is true.

Calibrate your coils to take advantage of the different frequency contours of the part of the string each coil sits under. I prefer to make the screw coil on the neck hotter because I think that is the sweetest node. I wind the slug coil hotter on the bridge because it gets more mids due to its position relative to the string. The wonderful irony is that it also adds a bit more single coil sparkle on top due to a bit less cancellation of the really high freqs -- and without a significant increase in hum.

But... you aren't hearing one coil or the other. The output is being added together, so you have the sum of the two coils. Any frequencies they share are enhanced, hence the well known low/mid hump, and since the higher partials are closer together, they tend to get canceled, and you have the reduced high end. Unbalancing the coils reduces those effects of the opposite phased coils, and then you have a wider spread of harmonics.

So I wasn't saying the two coils don't sound different, I just don't think picking over one coil helps that coil sense the string much more than the coil a very close distance away, especially if the two coils are made the same (both slugs or whatever).

I think a better example is switching the coils off. I recently wound a bass pickups with wildly different coils... based on listening to you guys, and also from an old Bartolini Hi-A I have. I had always been of the matched coils school. I have to say it was very interesting, and I plan on doing more.

[David Schwab]

What happen to this thread?

We are coming up with the bewildering number of reasons why pickups sound different.

[madialex]

Therefore the reason we all get nutty about getting the perfect tone. There are so many ways to alter tone in a humbucker, almost endless just by differing offsets. Thats why I believe no one can even get another's tone even if you wrote out a step by step recipie, well a hand winders anyway.....

FWIW I make the neck pickup with the screw side just a click offset, maybe .1 to .2 and use A3 mags, not always though, a lot of times I use A2 and have used A4 for certain applications. IMO A5 is just too powerful for the neck even if you underwind the heck out of it, it always seems too loud and powerful. ANother thing I do is use a lot more tension on the wind for the necks on hum's, too much and it gets sorta sterile and brittle and loses a lot of tone. Just my .02 cents worth

[Possum]

thanks...

wow this is a great thread, alot to think about and alot of valid ideas. This helps alot. The wire I'm using is thicker so at 7.6K there's actually more winds there than stock wire size. Also, yeah, he just oughta turn his damn bass down, but well we all gotta deal with finicky guys sometimes, customer is always right. Besides its his guitar and rig so that is what he's hearing so need to tailor these for him.

[Possum]

...........

It sure is good to revisit old concepts for a fresh look at what we do, so thanks for all the input.....

[Rosewood]

We are coming up with the bewildering number of reasons why pickups sound different.

LOL, I was actually talking about when I was looking for this thread a little while ago, it was named the same as the P90 thread and page two was from the p90 thread. It's back to normal now, I hope it wasn't brain fade on my part.

[JGundry]

You are picking on two different points on the string... closer to the bridge will be thinner sounding. That has nothing to do with the pickup, but the slug coil is the hotter of the two.

What I was really getting at was that picking the note closer to the bridge just illustrates that the tone of the vibrating string quickly changes when you get near the bridge. The nodal points of the vibrating string (bridge and nut) are for the most part tonally dead spots on the guitar. Their real purpose it to transfer string vibration to the rest of the guitar body. The the complexity of the string vibration goes down within a very small space right under the bridge pickup. So Deciding which coil is hotter in this position is particularly useful. The reason things like tailpiece and tuner mass and weight effect the tone of the guitar is because the changing the mass in an antinodal area will effect the resonant frequency and peaks of the entire system thus changing the overtones of the guitar.

[David Schwab]

What I was really getting at...

I got it, I was just in a pedantic mood...

And that does make sense to do that, and it's exactly what I did with a pickup recently.

[Dr. Guitar]

he's using it in a 335 and complains its too bassy with the volume all the way up on the guitar

First thing i would do is make sure he's got good 500K pots. Gibson slips those 300's in all too often. Not enough treble could be mistaken for muddy bass awfully easy. That and it's a way quicker, and easier place to start narrowing things down.

If he's got them, I'd check that they really do measure 500. After all, you've spent a lot of time designing these pick ups, you know what they are supposed to sound like, and if all of a sudden one set doesn't measure up, make sure it's not something else first.

[Possum]

pots...

good point, I almost always tell customers to rip out their pots and start over, so I'll check with him on that one...

[David Schwab]

I had a Hayman guitar once with ReAn humbuckers. It was really dark sounding. Then I discovered they were using 100K pots! Replaced them with 500K and it sounded like a new guitar.

Ever since then I always check the pots.

[Possum]

...........

anything that comes with mini-pots even if they are in spec are real tone killers, even just replacing with stewmac alpha stuff made a huge difference in one of my cheapo Jay Turser test guitars.....

BTW the customer has on target expensive 500K pots. Its a 335 so of course my sound samples on my LP aren't going to match a 335, duh.....

[Possum]

...........

well, I digress, I have heard some cheap 335s that sound like solid body guitars, especially a really expensive Gibson reissue piece of cold, heartless sounding wood a music store sales guy bought, does Gibson make anything that sounds good anymore? A guy traded me an ES 135 I think its called, its kind of an ES175 with a solid block in it, man that thing had zero soul, no warmth, I gave it back.....

[Zhangliqun]

Does Gibson make anything that sounds good anymore?

I'm not exactly a burst owner but trust me, come check out my little collection and the answer is a resounding YES. Just as with ANY guitar maker, you have to look for the better ones and never buy without playing it first.

A guy traded me an ES 135 I think its called, its kind of an ES175 with a solid block in it, man that thing had zero soul, no warmth, I gave it back.....

The 135 is not one of their more inspired designs. Not a fan of maple necks on Gibsons to begin with and I've never played a 135 that I liked. Stick with 335/45/55's, for that matter the 336/356's and Lucilles for your semi-hollow needs.

[Zhangliqun]

Yes, absolutely correct. And to Jon too... I wasn't disagreeing with that. My point is that depending on where you pick, you will get a huge change in tone.

Both are true -- changing where you hit the string and changing the position of the pickup make a big difference in the sound.

I agree the screw and slug coils sound different, and covers make it more so. Steve Howe used to flip his bridge pickups around so that the screws were facing the neck. He said it gave him "more tone, and less treble". So that's implying the screw coil is brighter, which I think is true.

Slug coils definitely have more honk and grunt, screw coils tend to be a bit more spongey and sweet.

But... you aren't hearing one coil or the other. The output is being added together, so you have the sum of the two coils. Any frequencies they share are enhanced, hence the well known low/mid hump, and since the higher partials are closer together, they tend to get canceled, and you have the reduced high end. Unbalancing the coils reduces those effects of the opposite phased coils, and then you have a wider spread of harmonics.

You're hearing both coils, sure, but if one coil has a lot more turns it will be more dominant in its effect on the tone. The more unbalanced, the more of a single coil character you get in the top end, while keeping the low and mid ooomph. But I've already said too much...they're coming to get me, AUUUUGHHH!!!

(sound of keyboard hitting floor, crickets chirping ominously...)