MLP....Just in case

[Sam Lee Guy]

But I'm old and cranky so...

No David, you just vintage too.

[Dave Kerr]

That's fair comment, shall we start on tonal adjectives now....I've had another guy looking for a strat pickup with a chewy midrange.....

I think the solution to that request is pretty obvious:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IElN_...eature=related

[Possum]

....

this thread is getting pretty funny :-) Well, I had to repeat over and over that the metal is of supreme importance because its not getting heard. Really I should just keep quiet about what i learned, but wanted to share it with others who might catch on and make closer sounding products. I think I won't be sharing anymore on this subject :-) I knew this was going to ruffle feathers when I brought it out, especially at the MLP forum. The title of that thread is "the best PAF clone." So they got WB sound clips all over that thread and I'll tell you they don't sound anything like the real deal. I made the mistake of pointing that out, oops. Especially the one clip in the middle position someone posted of WB's pickups sounded really nice, but if you are using a metal that is doing what the real stuff does, you get an almost tele like tone in the middle, listen to those Bloomfield clips on my video, for awhile I thought it WAS a tele, but its not. the metal reacts that way, it was one of the first things I noticed when I made the change. So they jumped on me for that, saying it ain't so. Most of those guys never played a real PAF and don't know what one really is. That is the hardest thing about this whole PAF thing, the name has been abused to death so that it is meaningless in the context of what do they really sound like, play like, record like, feel like, react like in different amps. Very few know that and have direct experience with it. Thats what you are up against if you're making something very close to the real deal. I"m finding players don't know what to listen for, even with vintage sound clips, they aren't hearing it, to them they are just pickups and they don't understand the difference between that and everything else. the only guys I'm finding who really get it are the more professional players and the OLD guys who had those pickups as a kid or who still own them.

The metal I am using is NOT the actual metal, it is made to do the same thing, perform the same function and is used in magnetic audio gear etc. For now its the closest I could get with being almost affordable, and a company that didn't insist on only selling me a 2000lb. minimum order, and actually answers emails. Nitewinder is right in that when you try to get this stuff or similar you are dealing with industrial types who won't sell you small amounts so you're talking a big investment. I've been very lucky that I got this far, I ran out of money to go any further so am cutting and milling this stuff myself which is a royal pain in the butt, but the rewards to the ear are worth it to me.

The weird thing about having a real PAF to play is that you get used to it real fast and it stops being something special after about a week and becomes just another pickup. Well, until you put it down and go back and play something else, then you go "oh yeah, I forgot...." and you realize the tiny things that makes these so cool to play. But damn, they are a HARD SELL, everyone has been beat over the head with "authentic PAF tone" that you get drowned out by the BS. Fortunately there are enough out there who have ears who are buying my product, so I can pay for this stuff :-) And I'm not done with this endeavor, probably will be years from now before I feel like I did all the work to my satisfaction.

So, enough of this stuff, lets talk about NAKED WOMEN!!! Yeah!!!!

[BCRGreg]

Hey BCR, first off, not trying to start a fight. However.. Assuming your opinion is superior is wrong as well. Having years in business and a solid customer base, also does not make your opinion right, it makes it YOUR opinion. If you are spouting off what they think, then you are just parroting their opinion. My uncle has been in the same business for 40 years. Know's every body in his business and everybody knows him. He, sir... it an ignorant ass. Nobody wants or values his opinion, no matter how often he gives it. Of course, the small stature comment wasn't called for.

I never promoted my opinion as superior, sir, just relevant.

[chevalij]

The whole issue with trying to create the perfect PAF appears to be that it becomes a cost-benefit analysis project. What does it cost to make it perfect. Will anybody but myself realize it is? Will I recoupe my expenses?

If only you know, and they're too expensive/difficult to make (even if you do make a small profit), then from a business point of view it's a loss. However, from a personal point of view..... Nirvana! (this is where the naked women come in)

[chevalij]

Well spoken. I believe all opinions have a right to be heard, and it's up to the individual to decide on the value of that opinion. Not every opinion that you disagree with has to be ridiculed.

I never promoted my opinion as superior, sir, just relevant.

[JGundry]

The PAF ground rules are dead simple at their very core. You need to use the right components and you need to wind the bobbins with a machine that can duplicate a PAF winding pattern as accurately as possible. The actual machine that is the ideal. Beyond the the magic lies in the choices of how all of it goes together. If we are talking about PAF's it has absolutely nothing to do with hand winding.

[David Schwab]

...you get an almost tele like tone in the middle, listen to those Bloomfield clips on my video, for awhile I thought it WAS a tele, but its not. the metal reacts that way, it was one of the first things I noticed when I made the change. So they jumped on me for that, saying it ain't so. Most of those guys never played a real PAF and don't know what one really is. That is the hardest thing about this whole PAF thing, the name has been abused to death so that it is meaningless in the context of what do they really sound like, play like, record like, feel like, react like in different amps.

That was my point... all the old humbuckers (and I'm sure a lot of them were PAF's and the rest were early patent label pickups) I've ever heard were very bright and clean. Not the exaggerated warmth you hear so often as a PAF. And how can you do a best PAF clone shootout if you don't know what a PAF sounds like?

So, enough of this stuff, lets talk about NAKED WOMEN!!! Yeah!!!!

You can get used to them in about a week too....

[David Schwab]

If we are talking about PAF's it has absolutely nothing to do with hand winding.

Machine wound tends to be cleaner sounding, and PAF's are clean sounding ... works for me.

[Spence]

the Paf Ground Rules Are Dead Simple At Their Very Core. You Need To Use The Right Components And You Need To Wind The Bobbins With A Machine That Can Duplicate A Paf Winding Pattern As Accurately As Possible. The Actual Machine That Is The Ideal. Beyond The The Magic Lies In The Choices Of How All Of It Goes Together. If We Are Talking About Paf's It Has Absolutely Nothing To Do With Hand Winding.

yawn !

[NightWinder]

ahhh

yawn !

You know, I had much more respect for you when the Sheep were pink....

[Sam Lee Guy]

The PAF ground rules are dead simple at their very core. You need to use the right components and you need to wind the bobbins with a machine that can duplicate a PAF winding pattern as accurately as possible. The actual machine that is the ideal. Beyond the the magic lies in the choices of how all of it goes together. If we are talking about PAF's it has absolutely nothing to do with hand winding.

Absolutely! You cannot get better than our friend Seymour Duncan. He had choice of winding machines and chose two best ones actually used at Gibson factory. Not just similar machine but ones owned by Gibson in 50's. He spent much time and money to make bobbins, baseplates etc... exact. How can you get better? Original materials made on actual same machines as originals. And Duncan pickup can be bought at every guitar shop in world for cheaper than most. Ploblem solved!
If you only care that the bobbin machine wound and not handwound, and not about exact parts, or actual best machine Gibson used then don't buy Duncan pickup but rather Chinese or Korean.
These pickup machine wound and plenty cheap.

[David Schwab]

Absolutely! You cannot get better than our friend Seymour Duncan.

I've said it before... I've never heard a Duncan pickup that I didn't like. When I worked at American Showster we would have Seymour wind us pickups every now and then. He wound them himself and signed them. I think we used one in Billy Gibbon's guitar.

My partner swears by his Antiquity pickups.

But that doesn't mean that all the PAF style pickups make by many, both hand and machine wound, don't sound great and have their place.

I recently learned a valuable lesson when I had to recreate two of my own pickups using different parts. My own hand made bobbins had totally different dimensions, different core shape and size, and different amount of metal, and a slightly wider aperture. Winding to the same spec yielded a totally different sounding pickup. I was not happy!

So I kept changing things based on what I heard, and finally I got something really close, and maybe better.

So what I learned is there are many paths to the same pickup Nirvana.

[GlennW]

Maybe a little off topic, but what HB's did Albert King's guitar have? I really like the sound on "Crosscut Saw".

[David Schwab]

Maybe a little off topic, but what HB's did Albert King's guitar have? I really like the sound on "Crosscut Saw".

One of his guitars was built by Dan Erlewine.

You could try emailing him and see if it's the same guitar

http://www.danerlewine.com/contact.html