Twangy Electromatic G5120

[petemoore]

I just picked this guitar up last year.
"Bright' is a word that doesn't seem to be in the guitars vocabulary.
Some of that is probably in the guitar, I know a lot of the lack of brightness is in the pickups.
The question is about unwinding on a pickup that is just 'dull' sounding, there is plenty of mids, and low-mids, top end just really isn't there.
I know there are other methods [eq, amp settings], including pickups, but then what do I do with these pickups? The hardware on the matches and they look great, and it sounds 'mellow' and smooth, just not what I want.
I don't particularly want to 'plunk down' on new pickups, and trash these...
Is it possibly worth the trouble...which I think hinges on whether the general frequency of the output might be shifted upwards with fewer windings.
Am I fighting an uphill battle by wanting treble sparkiness to somehow be produced with these pickups ?

[Spence]

he first step is to measure the D.C. resistance of the pickups.
Then take a look at the value of the pots. A simple change of these may help.
Taking turns off the pickup can be done but you will lose power too. sometimes the answer can be just changing the magnets for a different grade.
The main thing is that most pickups can be reworked quite extensively so you get the tone you want and the parts that show are still the same as before.

[kevinT]

+1

Evaluate where you're at and then make adjustments to the guitar and/or the pickups accordingly.,,,

[Possum]

....

If its china made, gut the thing , put in new pots and caps and rewire it with good fat gibson style braided wire. alot of those cheaper guitars if it is one, use mini-pots which should be banned from planet earth, tone sucking atrocities......

[David Schwab]

Then take a look at the value of the pots. A simple change of these may help.

+1

I was just going to say the same thing.

I had a Hayman once that was pretty dull sounding, then I checked and saw they used 100K pots! 500K's put things right.

[petemoore]

100k

100k goodness no !
And easy to get to to check out...once I pull that garbage out !
I clipped and put in a Harmony SC pickup [dinky, superfine wire thing from 60's?] and it's a bit brighter, not a whole lot, I think there's some loading [as in like you say] from the passives also.
It has a master volume and volume for each HB...not exactly what I'd choose [the master volume is located on the right horn, a good reach for my right or left hand ... lol].
So thanks to Ampage [thanks guys] I'm armed with good info, and will probably rip the junk out and stick something more useful or 'super' in there...
No problem figureing it, but getting to it...dahhh...not really that much worse than cavity work, once the entire mess is pulled out.

[petemoore]

G5120

The pots are B500k, that means they're like audio when fully CW.
However there are two in a row when considering the master volume, so that's still 250k...not too bad, I'm thinking of making hte master volume...something else or nothing..
Here's good lowdown fixup pictorial/texts, Total Makeover by John Nilsson, Sweden, very well done John.
http://hem.passagen.se/goba666/Grets...20makeover.htm
He used CTS, but these are large body pots [not the 16mm's mentioned above], seem to have smooth response and nice feel, I'm considering simply sticking with them.
The Filtertrons and Chet Atkins whammy arm are the only real 'makeover' items in the aesthetic sense, I may just try some hot coils with the emphasis not on bass, a treble bleed cap, perhaps something else where that master volume isn't going to be...we'll see.
I'm kind of surprized John chose linear taper and treble bleed, as audio taper pot 'would?'...say...at setting 8, have a large enough resistance to make the treble bleed cap treble bleed, yet have also less 'to ground loading' than a linear pot will...not sure I got that part right...
Any enlightenment about using 500 lin pots while wanting treble bleed to work well is welcomed!

[petemoore]

Whacked right through it

Hollow Body hardwar re-fits arent' that bad, I got all the pots [with lockwashers !] re-installed very quickly using a super needley nose pliers and a poker for the pots, and a coathanger with a lippy U shape in the end for a jack grabber...N/P.
I put some tapering resistors and bleed caps across the signal lugs of the volume pots [500kl pots] 150k / .0018 Uf for the neck, 220k .0033uf for the bridge.
No problem getting 'twang' now, brightness factor went from no-brightness possible to plenty bright !
and I did the 'clip 'n patch' method of pickup wire swapping, that way when I get something a bit more 'exotic', yet high quality w/treble bite I can install some different pickups.
The ring needed to be shimmed 1/16'' to bring the bridge pickup up high enough..
Vunderbar !

[soundmasterg]

The Gretsch Electromatics that they make now come with a full size humbucker that most people call the "Dumbbucker." They're ok sounding, but kind of bland and muffled and lacking sparkle. You can put some TV Jones Filtertrons in them with his mounting hardware to make them work in the full size humbucker rout, and wa-la, new guitar. That is what I plan to do with mine. I got mine last year and am not too impressed with the stock pickups. Some of the older Electromatics used some single coil Dynasonic copies which sound pretty good....I wouldn't mind finding one of those too. The fit and finish on the guitars are very good for the price, and if you upgrade the Bigsby to one made by Bigsby instead of the one license made by Gretsch, then you get a very nice guitar.

Greg

[David Schwab]

...and wa-la, new guitar.

Let's not offend our French speaking members... that's "voila"

Those TV Jones pickups are just like the real thing.

I thought he was making pickups for Gretsch?

[petemoore]

I guess...

As long as there's quality sound and 'treble'.
Amazingly dull sounding pickups didn't do anything for the guitar, it'd get played a minute, then thought about as it'd sit collecting dust, 'why change the strings?' etc.
Enter pickups with nice voicing [PAF's I have on hand], guitar gets played for hours and hours, and I quit worrying about 'if the body' is like the 'old body' and simply begin training the wood. Which is seems to really work magic, instead of low-bassWHoooOOOOO [ < useless feedback], the feedback is in the string voice range where it can be controlled and used to great effect. The whammy bar works 10x better...withought the treble [higher frequencies are much easier to notice frequency changes in] the whammy bar just made 'mucky detune blur', now the shimmer/chorus effect shines.
I guess there's some kinda use for bassy pickups on a guitar like this, replication of the old pickups using PAF's is more than satisfactory with simple tone knob adjustment...
TV Jones...I read about him, this seems like it could very well be a rare case where I might want or need "his' sound".
For now the PAF"s in Electromatic Body are getting action packed compliments from all those hearing it, and constant adulation and activity from this player, very very nice and some fair amount of twang...a fine feature for a guitar to have. Yea, eye open for TV jones, as it is, swapping is a 4screw/2 conductor splice at the pickup hole affair.

[soundmasterg]

Let's not offend our French speaking members... that's "voila"

Those TV Jones pickups are just like the real thing.

I thought he was making pickups for Gretsch?

Yah, well whatever. I speak English and a little german, and we Americans have a history of bastardizing language so its all good.

TV Jones makes his own line of pickups. On their top notch models, Gretsch uses his pickups. On their others, they use ones that were designed by him but made by Gretsch. With the "Dumbbuckers" on the Electromatics, all TV Jones designed about them was the look. He has adaptors that allow his filtertron and other pickups to sub right into a standard Gibson size humbucker rout, like what is on the Electromatics. I plan to get some for mine when I get some cash to do so.

PAF's or similar pickups would sound way better than whats in these Electromatics stock.

Greg

[David Schwab]

Yah, well whatever. I speak English and a little german, and we Americans have a history of bastardizing language so its all good.

I have a German name, and I don't speak any.... but I speak a little Italian.

TV Jones makes his own line of pickups. On their top notch models, Gretsch uses his pickups. On their others, they use ones that were designed by him but made by Gretsch. With the "Dumbbuckers" on the Electromatics, all TV Jones designed about them was the look. He has adaptors that allow his filtertron and other pickups to sub right into a standard Gibson size humbucker rout, like what is on the Electromatics. I plan to get some for mine when I get some cash to do so.

PAF's or similar pickups would sound way better than whats in these Electromatics stock.

Greg

So I guess the crappy Gretsch pickups are like the crappy Fender pickups.

These companies always seem to miss something.

[petemoore]

yes

PAF's or similar pickups would sound way better than whats in these Electromatics stock.
I call it a profound transformation.
The resonant frequency band of the instrument moved up in pitch.
It used to default to low pitched feedback when using the air to 'power' the guitar [iow increased amp volume], which worked a certain way', allowing only a very little bit of the 'cool stuff'...resonances in the natural frequency band of the strings.
A world of high frequencies opened up upon completion of the 'upgrades'.
I haven't looked at the freq charts of the various pickup candidates, preferably something with 'Gibson / Gretsch' profile and mounting details.
PAF's popped right in and super sparked it. It's now a magically responsive instrument ! Still curious about pickups in the medium hot output, slightly 'higher voiced' than PAF's dept., just so I can know about it, PAF's are great sounding in the Electromatic, the overall demeanor has improved markeldy. They've revealed a whole new world of discovery and bright tonal character that was concealed beneath the shrowd of darkness in the 'Dumbuckers'.
Great guitar, in a way it's kind of cool, mass produce a super fit instrument that cries out in a smooth, low pitched, weak voice: "choose your pickups"..."anything but these" beautifully finished, chrome covered ornamental pieces...
Don't get me wrong, they're perfect for that 'much smoother than average tone', just don't expect 'twangy' [like ad states] until you pull the muddy PU's out of it.

[petemoore]

YES!

PAF's or similar pickups would sound way better than whats in these Electromatics stock.
I call it a profound transformation.
The resonant frequency band of the instrument moved up in pitch.
It used to default to low pitched feedback when using the air to 'power' the guitar [iow increased amp volume], which worked a certain way', allowing only a very little bit of the 'cool stuff'...resonances in the natural frequency band of the strings.
A world of high frequencies opened up upon completion of the 'upgrades'.
I haven't looked at the freq charts of the various pickup candidates, preferably something with 'Gibson / Gretsch' profile and mounting details.
PAF's popped right in and super sparked it. It's now a magically responsive instrument ! Still curious about pickups in the medium hot output, slightly 'higher voiced' than PAF's dept., just so I can know about it, PAF's are great sounding in the Electromatic, the overall demeanor has improved markeldy. They've revealed a whole new world of discovery and bright tonal character that was concealed beneath the shrowd of darkness in the 'Dumbuckers'.
Great guitar, in a way it's kind of cool, mass produce a super fit instrument that cries out in a smooth, low pitched, weak voice: "choose your pickups"..."anything but these" beautifully finished, chrome covered ornamental pieces...
Don't get me wrong, they're perfect for that 'much smoother than average tone', just don't expect 'twangy' [like ad states] until you pull the muddy PU's out of it.