potting without pro setup?

[big_teee]

On Humbuckers, I used to pot the pickups then install the cover.
Now days I tape the coils real good when I build them.
Then I only pot the pickup with the cover on it.
I drain all the hot wax from the cover area.
Seems like I was getting more microphonics from the cover than from the Pickup.
You can still have good harmonics, and controllable feedback.
T

[kayakerca]

Here is my pot.

Homemax | 1.5QT Slow Cooker | NSC15 | XS Cargo Brand name Close outs- Appliances | Kitchen Appliances

Seems to work just fine. And. . . real cheap!

[Joe Gwinn]

I went down to Goodwill and found two pots that nested together nicely that I've been using as a double boiler for many years. If you have a gas range you might need to take extra precautions.

The only issue, for both gas and electric, is not to let the double boiler boil dry.

[Chuck H]

I question the double boiler method for two reasons. One is that water boils at 212F. The other is that I'm seeing a lot of rigs posted that are just a jar in a pot. Which could mean the jar is basically sitting on the bottom of the boiler pot. There is one reference to the use of nuts as a jar platform. But nuts are metal. And therefore highly heat conductive as compared to water. This whole method seems flawed. Steve has it right with an actual double boiler. That is, the melt pot is suspended. But if the pots are touching there is still extra heat conduction. There is also no reason the water must be boiling to use a double boiler. So I suppose the actual heat at the bottom of the melting vessel won't be at 212F. But what IS the melted wax temp observed by people doing it this way? with the added heat conduction of clubsy systems and the too high temperature potential I guess I just see this as a flawed idea. But...

To be fair, I DID do my first wax pot in a pot on the stovetop!!! It was a very nice double walled pot and a very good cook range with excellent low temperature control though. It still proves that really sophisticated systems are probably overkill WRT soaking anything in melted wax. I do think that if a poorly regulated system is used that temperature should be monitored. I did. Too hot and your warping platic parts. Even at 145F to 150F (which is what my temp was on the stovetop) there was some warp on a pair of p90 bobbins. And I had them elevated from the pot bottom with wooden dowels. Ergo... P90 bobbins warp at 150F.

I also think that wax that is too cool may not become viscous and penetrate well enough. The pickups in a follow up thread simply had hot wax poured into the covers. They squealed like little piggies. The amount of time it took the wax to cool wasn't enough to allow adequate penetration of the wax. So...

My coffee pot system http://music-electronics-forum.com/t31747/ regulates and holds a steady temp pretty well. It will get even better as I refine it. I just think regulation and control are paramount to getting good and consistent results. The crock pot idea has been kicked around here a bit. It seems difficult to regulate from what I've read. So a cheap crock pot may or may not work. Or may work with some experimentation. That's why...

In this and the above link I documented my process. Now I know what temp I'm potting at and others who build similar systems have an idea how to get good results. I don't think the crock pot thread ever offered a consistent method. And none of the double boiler systems or suggestions have any documetation of temperature. I don't think it's imortant to use a regulated system IF your monitoring the temp and have enough control. And I almost NEVER pot pickups anymore. But the next time I do I have a caraffe with wax in it and a way to bring it to a regulated temperature. The research and development were absolutely minimal and it cost me exactly nothing.

[Steve A.]

On Humbuckers, I used to pot the pickups then install the cover.
Now days I tape the coils real good when I build them.
Then I only pot the pickup with the cover on it.
I drain all the hot wax from the cover area.
Seems like I was getting more microphonics from the cover than from the Pickup.
You can still have good harmonics, and controllable feedback.
T

Sounds great! Now if you could just convince Lindy Fralin to do the same with his humbuckers... the pair I got from him were definitely overpotted which I heard was not uncommon.

Steve

[big_teee]

Sounds great! Now if you could just convince Lindy Fralin to do the same with his humbuckers... the pair I got from him were definitely overpotted which I heard was not uncommon.

Steve

What does over potting sound like, I've heard that about his before?
Are they dead sounding?
If you don't like his, There are a bunch of guys on here that can make you pickups.
Probably for less money, than what is listed on his website.

[Steve A.]

Chuck:
You can regulate the temperature of wax in a double boiler; when the wax melts you turn the burner down to medium or medium low. You could use an infrared thermometer (Harbor Freight sells them for under $30) or just a candy thermometer. IMO the big disadvantage with the double-boiler system is that you wouldn't want to leave it on all day as you might do with a wax pot. Pete at Vintage Vibe has a great wax rig: it is a full-sized crock pot plugged into a variac with the temperature monitored closely. He replaced the crock pot lid with one fabricated from acrylic plastic with an o-ring to seal it and a scrader valve (like the valve on a bicycle tire) on the top to hook up to a HVAC vacuum pump. As I recall he could get complete penetration of a strat coil in 10 seconds.

So you pot pickups only when necessary- I think that is way to go.


Joe: I mentioned gas ranges because I heard it is possible to ignite the vapors from the melted wax by the flames of the burner.

Steve Ahola

[Steve A.]

What does over potting sound like, I've heard that about his before?
Are they dead sounding? If you don't like his, There are a bunch of guys on here that can make you pickups.
Probably for less money, than what is listed on his website.

They were a lot less expensive when I bought them 12+ years ago when they were highly recommended by a friend for an ES-335. With all of the wax they are pretty damned heavy! Since then I usually go with Antiquities, Seth Lovers, Burstbuckers or Classic 57's- they all work for me. I've also gotten pretty good results replacing the Alnico 5 magnets in stock pickups with Alnico 2.
As you say there are some great winders on this forum- I'm sure if I had the opportunity to try out their pickups I'd find some that I liked a lot more than the ones I just listed.

Steve

[Joe Gwinn]

I mentioned gas ranges because I heard it is possible to ignite the vapors from the melted wax by the flames of the burner.

It is possible, especially if the wax pot is directly on the stove, rather than in a double boiler. Wax at 212 F isn't hot enough to burn without a wick. (I suppose there are waxes with volatile components that evaporate enough, but not beeswax and paraffin wax.) One can test this by heating the wax to 200 F and trying to light the vapors over the melted wax with the burning tip of a long match held just above the wax.

For comparison, one can put a match out in a saucer of kerosene. I have done this as a demonstration. The reason this works is that the legal definition of kerosene is designed so kerosene lamps won't be exploding in peoples' houses, back before electricity.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kerosene

(If you should get a flash, just put the metal cover on the pot.)

[big_teee]

Another thing mentioned was plastic bobbins warping, while potting.
Joe and I have discussed before the effects of wire tension.
If the P/U was wound with excessive tension, the tension may cause movement of the wire in the hot wax.
Even possibly when the wax temp is not excessive.
T

[Steve A.]

Joe: Thanks for the information on the volatility of paraffin. However, accidents do happen- especially here in California with our earthquakes- and clumsy people like me. If the wax on a gas range was to get knocked over and spilled I can see how it might cause a fire with a gas range. Especially if the wax was to get on something like the rattan trivets that some people use and was ignited by the gas flames. Yes, there are a lot of "ifs" in there but Murphy's Law seems to trump lots of "ifs."

I think that gas burners give you much better control for cooking than electric burners but people do need to be careful with them. Besides safety issues spillovers can clog the holes on the burner heads, resulting in uneven heat or delayed combustion when you turn the burner on. (I was an appliance tech for 10+ years and cleaned a lot of burners on gas ranges and cooktops.)

Thanks again for the information on the volatility of paraffin. BTW is the flash point of beeswax higher than that of paraffin which is a petroleum product?

Steve

[David Schwab]

Well, in fairness, some guys obsess about the temperature in a hot car, or whatever. A couple of degrees can make a difference in that case since common temperatures and unbearable temperatures are only ten degrees apart!!! Of course, if a guitar is sitting in a hot car at 140° unchecked I don't suppose that individual is too concearned about the pickups unpotting themselves!?! The melting point for straight paraffin is 125° to 165° (according to Wiki). The stuff I used is very hard. You almost can't bust a 3/4" thick block of it over your knee! I had to soften it somehow for peace of mind. But I was never concearned about the melting point being too low.

That's how the stuff I use is also. If I don't want to put a whole block in I have to cut it with a saw.

The melting point for beeswax is 144 to 147°F, so it's a little higher, but just don't leave your guitar in a hot car. It's not good for it. If you are getting hot enough to melt paraffin, you are getting hot enough to soften your glue joints!

I never leave guitars in cars unattended anyway. They get stolen that way.

[Chuck H]

I never leave guitars in cars unattended anyway. They get stolen that way.

How do you think I got mine!

Just kidding. No one should steal. Of course. But there's a special hell for those that steal certain types of personal property. Like guitars, tools one uses to make a living and fishing gear. Anyone that steals the above items should be peeled.

[Joe Gwinn]

Joe: Thanks for the information on the volatility of paraffin. However, accidents do happen- especially here in California with our earthquakes- and clumsy people like me. If the wax on a gas range was to get knocked over and spilled I can see how it might cause a fire with a gas range. Especially if the wax was to get on something like the rattan trivets that some people use and was ignited by the gas flames. Yes, there are a lot of "ifs" in there but Murphy's Law seems to trump lots of "ifs."

If one pots once in a while, I'd just use the stove, unless one also has an electric hotplate. I use a hotplate, but I had the hotplate.

I think that gas burners give you much better control for cooking than electric burners but people do need to be careful with them. Besides safety issues spillovers can clog the holes on the burner heads, resulting in uneven heat or delayed combustion when you turn the burner on. (I was an appliance tech for 10+ years and cleaned a lot of burners on gas ranges and cooktops.)

I prefer gas because of speed and adjustability. Used to be that electric hobs had only four or five speeds. Now, with modern power electronics, electric hobs are completely adjustable. Gas is still faster. What I've seen in commercial kitchens are induction units; these are very fast because all the power goes into the pan. But, one needs pans intended for induction, and one must choose a pan type that matches the induction hob, at least in the commercial units.

Thanks again for the information on the volatility of paraffin. BTW is the flash point of beeswax higher than that of paraffin which is a petroleum product?

I recall that they are about the same. I think someone else gave the melting temperatures.

[big_teee]

Flash point according to the MSDS sheet is 400F Minimum.
So Really is not very volitile.
Thought Bees Wax is just a Softening agent.
The MSDS for Beeswax is 399.99F.
So about the same.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...,d.aWM&cad=rja