tensioning vs. traverse... an on-going battle

[FunkyKikuchiyo]

I'd say if it isn't bouncing then it isn't bouncing. It seems like it would be pretty obvious if it was. A weak spring does seem like it would work better - my many hours dealing with strat tremolo springs tells me that weaker/worn out springs have a poorly defined zero which seems like it may avoid the resonance thing.

I should learn how to work with acrylic more. I generally use hardwoods, but the acrylic just makes better sense for pickup gear... flatter, clear, drills straight... I get way too excited about all the wrong things sometimes.

[kev]

I'd say if it isn't bouncing then it isn't bouncing. It seems like it would be pretty obvious if it was. A weak spring does seem like it would work better - my many hours dealing with strat tremolo springs tells me that weaker/worn out springs have a poorly defined zero which seems like it may avoid the resonance thing.

I should learn how to work with acrylic more. I generally use hardwoods, but the acrylic just makes better sense for pickup gear... flatter, clear, drills straight... I get way too excited about all the wrong things sometimes.

Yep, I don't see any bouncing in the future. It's pretty damn smooth guiding it by hand.
No play in the spring, no bounce.

Acrylic is great. It's not too expensive, easy on tools, and easy to work with. Make sure you buy the cast flavor though. It machines without melting and gumming up. And you can tap it.

[David King]

I really don't understand why this PE is causing such problems for you but I suspect you are right that the small spools are the cause. I've always gotten my wire in 6" spools and only feed through two felt disc tensioners about a foot away from the coil. I never have any issues even on long coils and see absolutely no purpose to having a dancer at the speeds I'm winding at (around 1000rpm).

[kev]

I really don't understand why this PE is causing such problems for you but I suspect you are right that the small spools are the cause. I've always gotten my wire in 6" spools and only feed through two felt disc tensioners about a foot away from the coil. I never have any issues even on long coils and see absolutely no purpose to having a dancer at the speeds I'm winding at (around 1000rpm).

I really do think it's the small spools. It was quite frustrating at first. I built the machine and tested it with Formvar the first time and it ran so damn smooth I was amazed. Switched to the PE and bonkers.... I messed with everything and about a half spool of wire before I could wind anything decent. Using just felt the only way it would not kink was having a clip about 2 inches above the coil. Next step is a 6 pound spool. With Formvar I can wind around 300 to 1500 rpm with no effort. Test... Test.... Test.

[FunkyKikuchiyo]

I really don't understand why this PE is causing such problems for you but I suspect you are right that the small spools are the cause. I've always gotten my wire in 6" spools and only feed through two felt disc tensioners about a foot away from the coil. I never have any issues even on long coils and see absolutely no purpose to having a dancer at the speeds I'm winding at (around 1000rpm).

I've had this problem with all wires that I've used, but now that you mention it, formvar did seem to do better than PE. I have PE on a couple different spools, some of which are quite large and well spooled, even better than the formvar ones that perform well. My problem has been how I have my traverse set up tensioned. Just to keep the wire down and not flying off of my guide, I end up creating some problems and that was what started this thread. I have a felt tensioner which is before the traverse, but the traverse requires bending around two axes, neither of which have any give, so the continual change in tension caused by the uneven bobbin is taken out on the wire. Hand guiding doesn't give me these problems, since in that case my "traverse" and "tensioner" are the same tool (my left hand) and the wire ultimately lays on the bobbin better.

I will add that I will never, ever buy wire from Stew-Mac again. My first experience winding was with their wire, and it ended up being great practice because it had so many problems with kinks and tangles in the despooling that I learned to be extremely careful with the stuff. Compared to that, the Elektrisola wire felt indestructible.

[kev]

I've had this problem with all wires that I've used, but now that you mention it, formvar did seem to do better than PE. I have PE on a couple different spools, some of which are quite large and well spooled, even better than the formvar ones that perform well. My problem has been how I have my traverse set up tensioned. Just to keep the wire down and not flying off of my guide, I end up creating some problems and that was what started this thread. I have a felt tensioner which is before the traverse, but the traverse requires bending around two axes, neither of which have any give, so the continual change in tension caused by the uneven bobbin is taken out on the wire. Hand guiding doesn't give me these problems, since in that case my "traverse" and "tensioner" are the same tool (my left hand) and the wire ultimately lays on the bobbin better.

I will add that I will never, ever buy wire from Stew-Mac again. My first experience winding was with their wire, and it ended up being great practice because it had so many problems with kinks and tangles in the despooling that I learned to be extremely careful with the stuff. Compared to that, the Elektrisola wire felt indestructible.

Sounds like you need to ditch the wheel and use a clamp type guide or use a wheel with a much deeper groove.

And, I am sorry for hijacking your thread a little bit. I was going to post this morning to say lets get back on track.

[David Schwab]

I've had this problem with all wires that I've used, but now that you mention it, formvar did seem to do better than PE. I have PE on a couple different spools, some of which are quite large and well spooled, even better than the formvar ones that perform well. My problem has been how I have my traverse set up tensioned. Just to keep the wire down and not flying off of my guide, I end up creating some problems and that was what started this thread. I have a felt tensioner which is before the traverse, but the traverse requires bending around two axes, neither of which have any give, so the continual change in tension caused by the uneven bobbin is taken out on the wire. Hand guiding doesn't give me these problems, since in that case my "traverse" and "tensioner" are the same tool (my left hand) and the wire ultimately lays on the bobbin better.

I will add that I will never, ever buy wire from Stew-Mac again. My first experience winding was with their wire, and it ended up being great practice because it had so many problems with kinks and tangles in the despooling that I learned to be extremely careful with the stuff. Compared to that, the Elektrisola wire felt indestructible.

I love Elektrisola wire.

But it sounds like you might be winding to fast? I also use the smaller spools most of the time. I keep the spool on the floor. The winder is up at table top hight (32"), and the wire guide is 5 inches from the bobbin. If I don't wind too fast it stays nice and neat. Too fast and I get flaring of the coil on the long sides close to the bobbin flange. I don't know the speed, but I do 5,000 turns in less than 10 minutes

[FunkyKikuchiyo]

I don't think I'm winding too fast. I don't remember what my winding speed is, but it is below what most people on here do, I think. I'll double check it tomorrow, I have a little stopper on my pedal so it should be wherever it was last time.

I think the BIGGEST problem was that my traverse and the little tensioner for hte traverse were way too close. I've since moved it, but I haven't done much/any winding since then. More distance means a less precise traverse, but the stretching should be less emphasized.

kev, what do you mean by a clamp type guide? I assume I'm seeing it in your photo, but I'm not quite sure what I'm seeing. The wire runs through the two pieces of acrylic, and the two pieces move back and forth? I like the wheel because I can put it on a threaded rod, and I get this wonderful hybrid of hand guiding and machine guiding. I don't think I like the spring loaded Lollar style, though I can appreciate how that may be nice for some.

[kev]

kev, what do you mean by a clamp type guide? I assume I'm seeing it in your photo, but I'm not quite sure what I'm seeing. The wire runs through the two pieces of acrylic, and the two pieces move back and forth? I like the wheel because I can put it on a threaded rod, and I get this wonderful hybrid of hand guiding and machine guiding. I don't think I like the spring loaded Lollar style, though I can appreciate how that may be nice for some.

Yes that's it. The guide is locked to the shaft between the spring and a collar with a set screw. The second shaft closest to the bobbin stops the guide from rotating up or down. Between the two pieces of acrylic I use a .005 shim on the two allen bolts to allow room for wire travel. The wire rides on little pieces of drill rod I polished and pressed into the acrylic.

You could make something smiliar and still use the threaded rod. Acrylic taps pretty well with sharp tools. I don't think it needs to be as big as mine either.

[FunkyKikuchiyo]

That is a really good idea kev. With two guiding collars and the wire threaded in between, you wouldn't need a devoted tensioner right before the traverse tool, too.

[kev]

That is a really good idea kev. With two guiding collars and the wire threaded in between, you wouldn't need a devoted tensioner right before the traverse tool, too.

Give it a try man. It shouldn't take too long to fab up.

[John Carlsen]

Just a quick question for you guys. I've been looking into tensioning devices as well, and I can't figure out how the Wisker Disc works. Is it enough tension in itself to do the trick, or does the wire need additional tension? Thanks guys!

John

[copperheadroads]

The wisker Disc
is not for setting correct tension ,But it will slow the feed enough to prevent other problems & have more control

[FunkyKikuchiyo]

Some of it is as a pretensioner, and it also just helps the wire from going out of control during the de-spooling process. In Kev's pictures, it would (hopefully) eliminate the need for the funnel. If not, it would allow him to replace it with something different.

[RedHouse]

When I use the small spools, I place them in a tall plastic (juice) pitcher and tape the funnel on top, it keeps the wire from whipping and getting tangled or snagged on stuff.

I drilled a hole in the bottom of the pitcher and run a 6" carriage bolt through from the bottom side (has flat type head), then on the top side where I load the spool I screw on a round knob taken from an old cooking pot lid from the local charity shop.
(yes I buy the lid w/Pot for like $1 or two)

With the funnel taped on the top it completely encloses the spool. Also I find that more felt along the path seems to help, for example if your wire path is 3 feet long (or a meter) I place felt pads abour every foot, with very little tension on them, it keeps the wire drawing through the path with some vibration dampening on it. I figured that out when I got Jasons book years ago, there's a picture (or was in my edition) in the back where he's setting up the DIY winder for a photo shoot and you can see his felt and clamp, well on my first winder I had a small desk I was working on at that time and couldn't really have that long piece of wood sticking out like that so I made my wire path vertical as in Kev's pic above, but the wire doesn't travel in free space it goes through several felt like wire guides which stop almost all problems.