about non-guitar speakers...

[joakinrox]

ok, so i know that any speaker will work on an amp (as long as i match the speaker impedance to the amps needs) but, im wondering in my country i cant really find "guitar speakers" just Pa, car audio and such. so my question is:

*how diferent will one of those sound on a guitar amp?, what frequency response do i need to look for in the speakers in order for it to be better suited for guitar amps?

*in case i find a regular speaker, can i alter the circuit tone/eq in order for it to sound more guitarish?

[stingray_65]

first off Greetings and welcome!

this has been discussed recently in this forum:

http://music-electronics-forum.com/s...ad.php?t=12244

I guess I am the one that has bought the topic up, so I'll give you my opinions here too.

Music Instrument speakers and High Fidelity speakers differ only in thier conrtuction.

Both will work in a guitar amp.

If the only thing available to you is a HiFi speaker, use it!

I had stated that there are three ingrediance to the over all voice of the sound produced whn playing an elecric giutar

the guitar and chord

the amp itself

and last the speaker.

if you are limited to what you can use, that cannot be helped, use what you have!

it is not wrong, it is just different.

we talked in that thread about American and British sounds.

in rock and roll during the 50's and 60 we here in the USA had the British Invasion. many UK bands and songs became polular here. the amplifiers that many of those perfomers were using were Brish made, and the speakers that were available to the amp maufacturers were British made too. the speakers were constructed differently than here and sounded different. (to us)

so using what is available to you in your part of the world will create YOUR OWN UNIQUE SOUND for your part of the world. this is not wrong, just different.

By the way, where are you from?

[black_labb]

one thing that should be mentioned, is that hifi speakers are much less sensitive, so you will need a much more powerful amp to get the same volume. many hi fi speakers are around 87-91db@1w1m where guitar speakers are around 96-101db@1w1m. each 3 db is equal to doubling the power output. so you would need a 120w amp into a 90db/1w@1m speaker to sound as loud as a 15w amp into a 99db/1w@1m speaker. you also need the hi fi speakers to handle the increased power for them to be as loud...

i believe pa speakers are closer to MI speaker sensitivity, some around 95db/1w@1m

[joakinrox]

@stingray: im from venezuela :P.

@black labb: so if i build a 100 watt power amp? i will get much less output power? =/ thats real bad xD. i already have a 10watt amp......


hmmm and about car speakers the oval shape on those will affect the sound?, where can i find out the db on a speaker?


another question offtopic: the amp i want to use with the speaker is a power amp of 50+watts... any recommendations?, and can i use as a pream a sansamp-gt2? i want it to be versatile

[stingray_65]

alright.

perhaps I'm reading into this wrong, but are you planning to use an automobile power amp for your guitar?

[black_labb]

the sensitivity (db/1w@1m) will be in the manufacturers datasheet. if you are buying online they will usually have the sensitivity with the info.

the thing about about amps is you can have a huge amp, but its the speaker that makes the noise, which is what it is all about (unless you want to brag about the wattage ) if you plug a big amp into a resistor, you have alot of watts going into a (big) resistor, but making no noise. the different speakers will give you different volume levels with the same volume going into them.

3db will be gained if you double the power of the amp
3db will be gained if you double the number of speakers
so if you have 2 96db/1w@1m speakers it will be the same volume as one 99db/1w@1m speaker with the same power going into them.

@stingray: im from venezuela :P.

@black labb: so if i build a 100 watt power amp? i will get much less output power? =/ thats real bad xD. i already have a 10watt amp......

if you build a 100w amp you will have 3db more volume than a 50w amp if going into the same speaker (by the way, db is decibels, which is what volume is measured in). what i was demonstrating was that a 100w amp is only as loud as the speakers its playing into.

going back to my example
"so you would need a 120w amp into a 90db/1w@1m speaker to sound as loud as a 15w amp into a 99db/1w@1m speaker."

if you plugged the 15w amp into the 90db/1w@1m speaker it would be 9db below the 100w amp into the same speaker. 10db is meant to be double the perceived volume. remember that a 100w amp doesn't sound twice as loud as a 50w amp, it sounds twice as loud as a 10w amp. it is only 3db louder than a 50w amp. this is because our ears hear volume on a log scale.

so if you want a loud amp, look for speakers with a high sensitivity (100db/1w@1m is high for a musical instrument amp) or look for an amp with alot of watts. if you want to blow you ears out with the amp on 2, look for both. if you want the output of your amp to be driven into distortion without it being too loud, get a speaker with lower sensitivity ratings.

you often hear of people blowing their hifi speakers when they use them for guitar or bass because they need much more power into them to be the same volume levels. ie. this isnt loud enough so you turn up until the speaker blows.

[black_labb]

alright.

perhaps I'm reading into this wrong, but are you planning to use an automobile power amp for your guitar?

i think he just wants to use auto speakers for guitar, as they are more accessible than MI speakers

back to the OP
if you know anyone with a broken amp (a lot of solidstate stuff these days are designed to die after a couple years if not sooner > built in obsolescence) you could salvage the speaker from that assuming thats not the broken part. it probably wont be great, but much better than hifi or auto speakers.

otherwise there would be mailorders that could get you a speaker. maybe not in venezuela, but brazil or argentina maybe, or even america. probably wouldnt be cheap. there are some speaker manufacturers that do great speakers at good prices (compared to the big companies) but shipping may be a bit of a killer. not sure about how your exchange rate has been affected recently either.

[6267]

I think some hifi speakers are in the hundreds of DB sensitivity, but the ones you are likely to find in modern, consumer stuff are not. Now the speakers in 1950s hifi *are* very sensitive, and often famous as guitar speakers. Example: Jensen P12Q Alnico. My motorola record player said "Hi Fidelity" right on the front, to make things clear...until it blew up. Oh well, sure is a great guitar speaker.

The problem is how far the speaker moves forward and backward..."stereo" speakers tend to be "long-throw", whereas MI speakers are short throw...when you plug a guitar amp into them, they can literally rip themselves apart trying to swing forward. I have actually torn a speaker to shreds with a 50 watt amp for kicks, it's not pretty.

The solution to this is to reduce or derate the speakers, namely by filling an entire 4x12 cab with them. The more speakers, the less power each one sees, but the whole thing gets louder & cleaner. Just use ones with big magnets. A bunch of those 6x9"s in series-parallel would sound awesome! I think that may be a very distinctive tone.

[black_labb]

I think some hifi speakers are in the hundreds of DB sensitivity, but the ones you are likely to find in modern, consumer stuff are not. Now the speakers in 1950s hifi *are* very sensitive, and often famous as guitar speakers. Example: Jensen P12Q Alnico. My motorola record player said "Hi Fidelity" right on the front, to make things clear...until it blew up. Oh well, sure is a great guitar speaker.

The problem is how far the speaker moves forward and backward..."stereo" speakers tend to be "long-throw", whereas MI speakers are short throw...when you plug a guitar amp into them, they can literally rip themselves apart trying to swing forward. I have actually torn a speaker to shreds with a 50 watt amp for kicks, it's not pretty.

The solution to this is to reduce or derate the speakers, namely by filling an entire 4x12 cab with them. The more speakers, the less power each one sees, but the whole thing gets louder & cleaner. Just use ones with big magnets. A bunch of those 6x9"s in series-parallel would sound awesome! I think that may be a very distinctive tone.

when you say long throw, are you refering to the distance the cone moves (ie Xmax)?

bass speakers can have quite large xmax levels. i have some 15" bass speakers with 7.5mm of xmax. guitar speakers tend to have less xmax, but can handle quite a bit of excursion before actually doing damage. this means the speakers will become nonlinear (distorted) when they exceed the xmax. hifi speakers tend to have xmax and xlim (maximum cone movement before damage) quite close together, so you dont get a warning before the cone shreds, like you mentioned. part of the reason that guitar speakers dont do this as easily, as there is a form of compression and harmonic distortion going on limiting the amount of low frequency moving the cone.

i do agree that putting plenty of 6x9" speakers would create a nice sound. would have plenty of lows and plenty of high end extension. if you were planning to use a high gain style amp i'd make sure you put in a high end rolloff (6db/oct will do) as car speakers of that sort will have a high end response up to 20khz or so, as opposed to a guitar speaker, that is lucky to be able to produce 6khz. would be great for a clean guitar sound though. filling a big cab with alot of them would get the lost sensitivity back. problem is using that number of speakers would be more expensive than traditional MI speakers.

[Steve Conner]

One problem with hi-fi and auto speakers is that they tend to have cones made of a plastic with high internal damping. This gives a nice flat frequency response for hi-fi, but the same flat frequency response makes them sound somewhat dull and dead on guitar.

The weight of the damping material gives the speaker a lower resonant frequency, which again, is intentional for hi-fi and car subwoofers. But it also lowers the sensitivity, which is bad for MI use.

So my tip is, if you're looking for non-guitar speakers, look for paper cones, avoid plastic, Kevlar, metal or whatever like the plague.

[Earl Norton]

I tried using auto speakers for PA monitors once. I put 5 1/4 inch speakers in a hot spot like enclosure. They were rated for the amp driving them, but they failed any way. I think the transients produced in live music was too much for them.

In the late 60's, the Shure microphone company marketed a PA system called the vocal master that used several 6x9 speakers. Sounded great for its time.