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  • #16
    Dear km6z .
    The (Professional) suggestions you offer are correct and about the same of what I suggested at the beginning, although I expected a somewhat simple PA mixer.
    Self-quote
    I'd rather plug them straight into the proper mixer channels and switch channel effect assign jacks *or* have the PA operator add the effect to the proper channel when necessary
    No doubt because of your former Pro Sound and Recording experience, you fly much higher:
    a multiplexer handles the line reversals just fine with a very simple logic steering, one control line. It is certainly doable, and even trivial if there are direct channel outs, or if more than one aux returns and sends, either way, and without having to remember which mic is in hand at any given moment.
    The question was how to do it with a circuit. Answers were given that are relevant. But the problem is probably not best solved...if it IS a problem, by hardware changes. A competent mixer with subgroups, clickless muting, maybe with direct outs or some spare aux buses can already do what is requested.
    Unfortunately little is known about the features of the gear being used, there is a good chance if there are free subgroups or auxs, nothing more than a mute button is needed to be pressed to switch the effect to the opposite mic. Overall, however, it seems like a poor way of handing stage craft, when hardware sets up a less than conventional use of the signal paths are hard wired it limits at least one channel to a range of use. A better solution probably involves figuring out why the OP thinks this is a performance solution at all. What is being asked of the gear is something that normally would be handled by the board operator without any hardware.
    Problem is, there are NO "multiplexer/line reversals/direct channel outs/out returns and sends/subgroups/aux busses" .
    Nothing at all.
    Not even a regular conventional mixer nor a simple Powered Mixer Box.
    And no Board Operator either.
    Ugh !!

    From what I see, that Bose system is a *very VERY* simplified PA amplifier, only 2 mic channels, probably 1 XLR and 1 Line in , period.
    What looks like a speaker stand is the actual speaker cabinet and power amp.
    The cellphone sized box in its middle is the Mixer.
    The two shoeboxes to the right are the Subwoofers.
    Bose L1 Model II Double Bass Package with ToneMatch Engine - Live Sound Loudspeakers - Professional Sound Systems

    Thatīs why I find to that to comply exactly with what the OP asks, everything must be "outside".

    The system I suggest includes whatīs necessary: 2 XLR inputs, some amplification to turn audio into unbalanced line level signal to simplify everything, channel send/returns to interface the Harmonizer, multiplexing to assign it to the desired channel, and outputs suitable to plug this into the Mixer.
    Simplest/cheapest is to exit as a line level signal but if necessary XLR can be available too.
    A 3 button pedal would also be necessary: A/B/none

    As a side note, I can roughly design such a system in a couple days and test/polish it plus design a PCB, front panel, suitable cabinet, etc. as needed to produce a working prototype in, say, 10 days, but itīs impossible for a single unit (or a couple).
    Iīm sure you and many others around here can do the same.

    If there were possibilities to make and sell, say, 200 or 1000 of them, the effort is worth it.
    But I doubt such a Market exists.
    And as I said, to make just one itīs *way* more expensive than buying another Harmonizer and just switching them in/out as needed.
    Oh well.

    I'm sure that if we were in China, rough ideas such as this would be in US (and rest of the World) dealerīs shelves in a month or two.
    Oh well 2.
    Juan Manuel Fahey

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    • #17
      The harmoniser we use is a TC Helicon Voicelive Touch. We could by a second harmoniser. However, when you switch the harmony on, the balance is not right against the lead voice. Also, we can not swap mic's as he is a drummer & I am the base player. Strange I know! We have been in all sorts of bands, trio's, etc, etc. However, here we are performing with backing tracks as a base & drum duo and I've got to say its going very well. Just need a simple solution to switch the lead vocal.

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      • #18
        What a nice gadget !!!
        Now that I see that it has both XLR in and out (I thought it had straight Line level out only) , it *can* be done with analog switchers as suggested earlier, but ..... who will grab the Tiger's tail?.
        Even if "looks donīt matter", a PCB has to be designed and made, and the actual switcher must be built, plus debugging later.
        Not Rocket Science but from screen to actual just soldered gadget, *always* something has to be trimmed or polished.
        CD4053 as suggested by Enzo or the more modern ones suggested by KM6Z will do, of course.
        Anybody?.
        Probably just buying another Harmonizer is the shortest path.
        Oh well.
        Juan Manuel Fahey

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Deeweb View Post
          The harmoniser we use is a TC Helicon Voicelive Touch. We could by a second harmoniser. However, when you switch the harmony on, the balance is not right against the lead voice. Also, we can not swap mic's as he is a drummer & I am the base player. Strange I know! We have been in all sorts of bands, trio's, etc, etc. However, here we are performing with backing tracks as a base & drum duo and I've got to say its going very well. Just need a simple solution to switch the lead vocal.
          I don't see any problem in using it at all. Matrix? Chips? Bull parky.
          Just plug it in and use it.
          Phantom power has current limiting resistors and voltage block capacitors, so if you short it to ground, nothing, no damage whatsoever.
          It's not complicated, it's not technical, it's not confusing.
          I think ask the factory if they will make one with a footswitch instead of a toggle switch. They might just do it for you.
          So forget about the tech crap, buy it and connect it.

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          • #20
            The Sescom box isn't quite what you need. It switches A or B to a third port. You need something that has four ports, let's say A, B, X, Y. And the stomp switch changes from (AX, BY) to (AY, BX).

            A balanced line has two wires plus ground. You could connect all the grounds together and switch the signal lines with a 4PDT stomp switch, if such a thing exists. This would be easy to build, but it could possibly make annoying pop sounds if phantom power was involved.
            "Enzo, I see that you replied parasitic oscillations. Is that a hypothesis? Or is that your amazing metal band I should check out?"

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            • #21
              Yes, I can see that, I was waiting for another corrosive (H2SO4) response from JM Fahey.

              Well this guy wants to be able to shut the harmonizer off on one mic and turn it on for another mic.
              That means he has to have his mixer on stage, and run the harmonizer through the effects loop.
              Then he needs to turn the effects knob off for one mic and raise the effects loop for the other mic, while he is sort of playing at the same time.
              That's about it, no soundman. He has his mixer on stage and he is his own soundman.
              Other than some ridiculously custom made overcomplicated solution, or buying two harmonizers.
              That's it, there's the solution. Operate your own effects loop mixer knobs from the stage.

              Whats that? you want seamless perfection (like a rock star) for $29.95? Well, there isn't any.

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              • #22
                Yeah, but he also has one of those crazy Bose all-in-one PA systems, and I doubt it has a proper mixer or an effects loop.

                You really can have seamless perfection for $29.95 if you're willing to buy the parts and build it yourself!
                "Enzo, I see that you replied parasitic oscillations. Is that a hypothesis? Or is that your amazing metal band I should check out?"

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                • #23
                  BOSE=
                  Buy Other Sound Equipment

                  What do you guys stay up all night? Are you on the other side of the world or something?

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                  • #24
                    Yes, other countries than America are available. It's lunchtime here.
                    "Enzo, I see that you replied parasitic oscillations. Is that a hypothesis? Or is that your amazing metal band I should check out?"

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                    • #25
                      He's got a plain mic input, and he has a harmonizer into a mic input. Each of those gets a mic. All he wants to do is stomp a switch to swap which mic feeds which input, exactly as if the two guys handed off their mics to each other. He says he can;t do that for staging reasons, though it would work. What Steve described in post 20 is all he needs.

                      He has two mics on stage, and their cords wind up at his mixer. An A/B swap box only needs be inserted into those two mic lines - it doesn;t require access to the mixer any different from what they now have. 4PDT stomp switch, or a relay same, or even two DPDT relay in a box. CMOS switches work well and reliably also. None of that is complex, convoluted, or bulky. If I built it, it would cost him more than $29.95, of course. Parts is not much, labor is the issue. WOuldn't cost ME more than that though. WHichever 405x is the quad SPDT costs under a buck, and a wall wart is cheap power - the expensive parts are the box and the connectors.
                      Education is what you're left with after you have forgotten what you have learned.

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                      • #26
                        Hi guys.

                        @ soundguruman: there's nothing personal here, in fact over 50% of what you post goes on unchallenfged,
                        It's just that some things you post .... well .... are difficult to verify.

                        Ah !! it's mid morning here, late for breakfast, early for lunch.
                        Letīs say that Steve (lucky guy) lives at GMT , I am at GMT-3 (should be -3.5) and US guys from, I guess, GMT-6 to -8 or thereabouts.Too lazy to check now.

                        @ Enzo and Steve
                        Agree. A couple CD4053 should do the trick, with a couple switches to spare, which could be used for muting while switching (á la Peavey) or other useful tasks.
                        Chip cost is nil, but connectors, a case, switches, will add up.
                        The challenge (not *that* much but it must be done) is designing and building just *one* PCB.
                        Iīm not trying to "complicate" matters, simply that strange ultra-specialized PA does not have the functionality we need, and it must be supplied externally.
                        Nothing more than that.

                        Worst case, it might be made with PTP wired relays, glued to the case bottom, no PCB at all.
                        It *might* introduce unwanted pops or clicks, though.
                        And I would *never* switch phantom powered mics either.
                        Itīs not that the +48V supply would die or not, (sorry SGM) but the 48V peak transients will be horrendous.
                        Plus, probably after a short it might take a couple seconds to recover proper voltage.
                        Oh well.
                        Juan Manuel Fahey

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                        • #27
                          That means that it's tomorrow there, and this email is traveling through time.

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                          • #28
                            This never occurred to you,
                            but the purpose of an open forum discussion may not be to "challenge" other people's posts.
                            You are welcome to agree and disagree, but when you pour H2SO4 all over other posters,
                            you deserve the same.

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