Is it just highe end? (cable differnces)

[pdf64]

'a cable would have to have a ridiculous amount of capacitance for anyone to notice a loss of high frequency'
Consider the condition when the instrument's volume control is rolled back a little (perhaps an alien concept to many guitarists, but nonetheless); with a 500k pot and a cheap cable, the -3dB corner HF rolloff frequency may be near or below 1kHz?
As mentioned previously, for me the real benefit of a good low capacitance instrument cable comes when the volume control is used and the tone doesn't get horribly muffled (even with my damaged hearing).

[The Dude]

First, I must stress that I am actually curious and not trying to be a smart ass or start an arguement. I certainly don't know everything!
Ok, that's out of the way.
I can't imagine any scenario where a non-defective/properly working guitar cable would have a corner rolloff frequency as low as 1khz unless it is of unreasonable length. Can you point me to any information that confirms this via testing? I'm going to try to find time to do some testing with various cables myself since this thread now has my curiosity peaked.

[pdf64]

A 500k instrument volume pot will have an output impedance of at least 125k when adjusted to an electrically 50% setting.
If the total cable capacitence is 1n27F, then the corner frequency will be 1kHz.
I concede that 1n27F does seem rather bad (though not in the curly cable league); the highest capacitance instrument cable I could find just came out at ~800pF, which would give a corner frequency of ~1k6Hz.

[g1]

The loss of HF when rolling off volume control is a fairly well known phenomenon. Enough that many add treble bleed caps for compensation.
What I don't think is taken into much consideration is how much the cable capacitance affects the scenario as pdf64 has illustrated.
Something to keep in mind when auditioning treble bleed cap values.

[J M Fahey]

The Masochist died and went to Hell ... which made him immensely happy, now he'd receive lots of tasty punishment and torture.

The Devil received him at the admission desk, and told him:
- "I'll put you in an impossible to open cell, alone with a Sadist, for all of Eternity"

the Masochist was delighted, and rushed to said cell

10 minutes later, when the door was locked forever, he told the Sadist:
- "hi, I'm the Masochist, feel free to beat or punish me as you wish"

the Sadist slowly looked at him from head to toes, and with a firm voice answered:

- "NO"

[Chuck H]

I'm going to back track a bit here (apologies- previous post deleted). Is it not the pickup impedance that's of concern rather than pot resistance? Correct me if I'm wrong, but an electric guitar's output impedance would never be 125K. Would it not be whatever the max impedance of the pickup is or something less? In other words, if you plug a guitar cord into a guitar and measure the resistance it's not ever going to be that high. Guitar impedance (not resistance) is said to be in the 20-40K range. At 40K, the corner frequency is around 4.7K and if we turn the volume down (lower impedance), the corner frequency goes even higher.

I still think reasonable cable capacitance is, for the most part, moot here. Loss of high end when turning the guitar volume down is an effect of changing values in a low pass filter and using this or that cable should have little effect.

I welcome all takers to show me where I'm wrong.

There are WAYYYY too many possible scenarios to justify/unjustify any position on this.

There are circumstances where the capacitance of the guitar cable makes a significant audible difference.

There are circumstances where the capacitance of the guitar cable makes no significant audible difference.

Ta Da!!!... I have contradicted myself and been absolutely correct simultaneously

[The Dude]

On to something less taxing then.

[Leo_Gnardo]

I'm going to back track a bit here (apologies- previous post deleted). Is it not the pickup impedance that's of concern rather than pot resistance? Correct me if I'm wrong, but an electric guitar's output impedance would never be 125K. Would it not be whatever the max impedance of the pickup is or something less? In other words, if you plug a guitar cord into a guitar and measure the resistance it's not ever going to be that high. Guitar impedance (not resistance) is said to be in the 20-40K range. At 40K, the corner frequency is around 4.7K and if we turn the volume down (lower impedance), the corner frequency goes even higher.

I still think reasonable cable capacitance is, for the most part, moot here. Loss of high end when turning the guitar volume down is an effect of changing values in a low pass filter and using this or that cable should have little effect.

I welcome all takers to show me where I'm wrong.

Maybe that cool tasty white russian will clear the cobwebs. As in #46, consider the guitar's output is taken from wiper of a 500K volume pot. With the pot dialed down so you have 250K to ground down one branch, 250K + Zpu down the other, that's just a dab over 125K source impedance. Put an ohm meter on it if you don't believe me. 'Ah I see now' said the carpenter, as he picked up his hammer and saw. Yes it is an RC filter, just gots to model it right. (put light bulb going on over head smiley thing here.) The source impedance makes the "worst case" worse, that's why we tack "brightening" caps across the volume control, try to make up for it.

For those into "loading" there's now commercially available cable plug adapters with built in caps and resistors, get that brown tone the x-pensive way. Who'd a thunk it? I wonder if $2000 low-cap miracle cable buyers also buy those adapters so they can have calibrated shades of tone-browning.

Now onto something more taxing, taxes, you had to remind me. I'll be needing a pitcher of wr's when that's done.

[Leo_Gnardo]

I'm basically done with this thread. BUT, the output of the guitar is indeed taken from the wiper of a 500K pot. That pot is paralleled with the pickup(s). The resultant resistance can therefore be no more than the resistance of the pickup.

True only when the volume control is dialed up full. As you dial it down you put one "leg" of the the pot's resistance in series with the pickup from the POV of the wiper/output jack/cable. Its path to ground is thru the pickup so add the pickup's Z to that R. Consider the pot set at its electric halfway point, 250K to ground at the grounded end 250K + Zpu at the other. At this point Zpu going to be negligible compared to 250k, at DC & low frequencies, so your resulting source is a pinch over 125K. At high frequencies the L component of Zpu is going to rise - a lot - with the pot set the same, now the resistance to ground thru the pot takes over, check at a high enough frequency & you'll be darn close to 250K

As you said, "Put an ohm meter on it if you don't believe me". Stick a cord into your guitar's jack and measure the resistance.

In case I had a brain fart, tried it myself: just measured my Guild Polara - has 250K pots. With one pickup selected I measure Rmax 68K with the vc at 7. Fits the model for resistance.

No cobwebs here.

A whole winter's worth here plus dust bunnies by the shovel full. Not all of it is in my head. Where's Hazel when you need her?

Edit: It should be noted that impedance will be slightly higher than resistance, but still nowhere near 500K.

With a couple henrys in a pickup coil, again looking at it from the pot wiper/output jack/cable the impedance on the pickup leg will rise with frequency, eventually the pot's leg to ground will dominate the calculation, and source Z will approach 250K with a 500K pot set at the halfway point.

All the more reason to have a buffer in or near the guitar if you want to preserve whatever hi frequency content you have. All hail Rick Turner's one-FET Strato-blaster. Spin Europe 72 one more time and enjoy the results.

[Mark Hammer]

Yes, I should have stipulated something like "typical electric guitar sound". You're describing an atypical tone with content likely well over 5Khz. Of course, the more high frequency in your sound, the more you will notice crappy cables. So I'll also stipulate that my statement does not include acoustic guitar.

There will be situations where it sticks out (clean tone, SC pickups) and situations where it doesn't (overwound HBs with no top end to start with).

[potatofarmer]

I haven't tried picking apart the math behind this spreadsheet, but you can see the effects of cable capacitance on the resonant frequency of a pickup. At least in theory:

www.harryj.net/voltone.xls

I remember that. (IIRC) BL seemed be a proponent of low C cable in order to be able to add in C (also not one to fixate on "special tone caps" as well as I remember reading) with the tone control to exploit the resonance shift (more better for distorted tones and vice a versa for cleans) and not one of simply using a low C cord period and that being the ideal fixed scenario.

Yeah, and I bought a set of his Microcoils to try it out but IME it doesn't work. The difference in high end between a high-capacitance cable and a low-capacitance cable is noticeable, if slight. Deliberately making a resonant peak and moving it around with different cap values (in my limited experience) is wishful thinking. I suppose fortunately I got ejected from the BL cult before I could say something so heretical. It would be really nice if it did work, and maybe it does but the resonance is so damped that you'd never know without plotting an FFT, but qualitatively it's kind of a waste of time.

I would bet a month's salary that 180 pfd versus 280 pfd is NOT the reason we have never heard the OP's music on major albums or songs other musicians are inspired to copy.

So if Lady Gaga comes out hard in favor of low-capacitance cable, suddenly the argument has merit?

Seriously man, way to make anyone who struggles with covering "Hey Joe" want to open a vein. "Anyone have opinions about guitar cables?" "NO, BECAUSE I'M NOT A LOSER LIKE OP."

[eschertron]

Deliberately making a resonant peak and moving it around with different cap values (in my limited experience) is wishful thinking.

On one of my guitars I have installed a Stellartone control that does exactly that. I like it, although next time I may make my own device for way less $$.

[Chuck H]

"Anyone have opinions about guitar cables?" "NO, BECAUSE I'M NOT A LOSER LIKE OP."

That's not working for me. daz is a long standing and very respectful member here. Whatever you think of him, comments like this, when entirely unsolicited, should be culled by your social filters out of respect for ALL forum members. There's still time to edit your post.

[pdf64]

I read potatofarmer's comment as paraphrasing / vilifying the position expressed in post #39?

[eschertron]

I read potatofarmer's comment as paraphrasing / vilifying the position expressed in post #39?

Yes. I read Stan's post as an unwarranted and unprovoked attack; PotatoFarmer's as a defense...