Searching for the best Kbd layout of them all?

[Alex R]

...but so much C20 music lies a bit beyond major and minor scales, and is to some extent modal. Most familiar example of this is the blues scale, which of course is everywhere in popular music of the last 50 yrs. In C I think that's C - Eb - F - Gb - G - Bb - C. I haven't studied your keyboard layout but it seems to me that in giving you the major and minor scales handy and easy it's made playing at least a blues scale very tricky indeed. I can't tell you what the Locrian C scale is, but I bet that doesn't sit too easy on it either. Etcetera.

I'd suggest that the standard keyboard is what it is because, although apparently overcomplex at the start, it doesn't put a ceiling on your playing later. Tell you what, play Stormy Weather on that thing and I'll give you a used harmonica.

[David Schwab]

The uniformity of Wicki's button layout is that by learning only the patterns of one major and one minor scale, I'll be able (w/o additional scales practice) to play all 24 scales!
Whereas the physically unequal "zebra" ("traditional piano") layout requires learning the piano 24 times for right hand (or 48 times with both hands). That's alright for people, who have time and efforts to waste on this awkward layout.

And without additional practice, how well will you be able to play the one scale fingering you learn, and what will you be able to do with that scale?

Beginners sound like beginners because they don't have as much playing time under their belt. It makes no difference what instrument is it, or how hard or easy it is to play. Practice makes perfect. You only have to learn those scale fingerings once.

I can relate to having fewer scales fingerings to learn, as on guitars and basses (my main instruments) the scales are easily transposable, but even then, there are more than one way to play any given scale, and I find that to be a good thing!

Making up new ways to play scales opens you up to playing different things.

It just sounds to me like you are trying to find an easy way out from having to practice, and that's not going to happen. All you need to do is play night and day for a few weeks and you will be set.

[David Schwab]

On a guitar, I can set a capo around the neck and finger like always for E but play in F sonically.
But that doesn't work when the same song changes from major to minor or visa versa.

You don't know much about music I take it? Or just strings instruments?

Guitars are chromatic, not diatonic. A capo will transpose the entire instrument up by that many frets, assuming you shift the rest of the notes you play accordingly.

Major or minor don't matter if you transpose.

The other interesting thing about guitars is you can get to the same note on more than one string. You can't do that on a single manual keyboard.

Wicki offers keyboard players the chance to gain proficiency in a couple of years, whereas the irregular zebra layout forces you to learn to play the instrument 24 times over & over (or 48 times for both hands!) Wicki has non of this nonsense. It took me ages to believe these facts, too.

It's nonsense to think it takes many years to learn basic scales on a keyboard. It doesn't. My son taught himself to play piano in a few days.

You only have to learn the fingerings ONCE... not over and over again. And the only reason you might want to use standard fingerings is because they help you keep your fingers out of each other's way. But there are many self taught layers why play any which way.

Scales are not music. You don't have to learn a single scale to play a song on a piano. You do need to know where the notes are, and the uneven black keys make that easy. Just look for the D between the two blacks. You don't have to learn a half dozen colors to figure out where you are.

There might be some advantages to this keyboard layout for some people, but the fact that everyone doesn't use it is telling.

[jjj]

Have a look at my thread in this forum... They got all the experts on it:
http://www.concertina.net/forums/ind...st=#entry70041

[Alex R]

They do indeed got all the experts. Not sure you come out of the discussion that well however. But good luck all the same with totally revolutionising musical notation. When you think of all that time Bach wasted on that irrational black key white key malarkey and those crazy old staves instead of writing something better. Goldberg variations schmoldberg variations.

[jjj]

They do indeed got all the experts. Not sure you come out of the discussion that well however.

Thats, because you only read some postings of the the battle thread, But have a look at the end of it; the one in responds to this one: http://www.concertina.net/forums/ind...st=#entry70041) You might side with those, who still reckon my innovative Wicki notation is futile (?) Hence, in the end I certainly convinced one "concertina gunman" and the other "warriers" went into hiding...! They seem to only enjoy the first bit of the discussion. So, it finally turns out that my innovative Wicki notation makes sense! Yet, it took "the experts" a while to come to this conclusion (!) In Germany we used to say: "Wer zuletzt lacht, lacht am besten!" (Who laughs last, laughs best!)

In another thread in the same forum the battle got even worse, because I tried to get the message through that Klavarskribo is so much easier to read and play than common notation and got all keyboard teachers and traditional notation experts on my neck! They have countless sordid and illogical excuses to defend their unduly complicated notation and zebra Kbd.

[jjj]

David Schwab;55101]

You don't know much about music I take it?

A novice, that's right; unlike you, I didn't go to the conservatory (only crematory). Here is my Demo; spot the flaws: http://www.live-styler.de/home/images/jjj-DEMO.wma

Or just strings instruments?

I suppose my Demo proves that I play a the most natural "string instrument", too!

Major or minor don't matter if you transpose.

Yet, if you capoed at the second fret, a standard C chord becomes a D chord and then the melody changes forth and back into any of the remaining 11 scales of major or minor... I suppose you have to stop playing and then change the capo?

The other interesting thing about guitars is you can get to the same note on more than one string. You can't do that on a single manual keyboard.

On the (MIDI) keyboard I can do that, too! My Synth allows it.

It's nonsense to think it takes many years to learn basic scales on a keyboard. It doesn't. You only have to learn the fingerings ONCE... not over and over again. My son taught himself to play piano in a few days.

Congrats, your son must be a protegy or a genius; immensely famous. What's his name, again? That means the most professional keyboard players, such as Evan Lenz (and I) aren't gifted, like your beloved son. Weird, that Evan likes my Janko Synth adapter and is fond of Klavarskribo. His blog and my PDF d/l here: http://evanlenz.net/blog/2008/01/27/manual-symmetry/ He acclaims the Klavarskribo as well. He was that much into traditional notation and zebra keyboards, that he was totally unaware of the existence of the Janko keyboard and Klavarskribo until I mentioned it to him.

There might be some advantages to this keyboard layout for some people, but the fact that everyone doesn't use it is telling.

Yes, it tells, it tells how much ignorance it surrounds and why teachers have good reasons to prefer teaching the zebra keyboard and its common notation. Imagine how many lost revenues years it would cost them... Hey, where are the teachers in this forum? Please defend your income!
You seem to know so much more about music than me... I feel beaten and...

[jjj]

You only have to learn those scale fingerings once.

This is true with the Wicki keyboard layout, but untrue with zebra keyboard. Quick test: First ask your pianist son to play a simple song first in C-major and then the same song in C#-major and see what happens! (If the result is what I expect to be... Pst, don't tell anyone!

...you are trying to find an easy way out from having to practice

Indeed, because the Wicki layout allows it! Thus, it enables me to become a proficient keyboard player in two years instead in 15 to 20 years with the traditional zebra piano layout. Simple as that!

...play night and day for a few weeks and you will be set.

Good day and good night! How come it didn't happen to Mr. Lenz the pianist or me musical layman, while I was playing the accordion for over 10 years? We must be total failures... according to your "scientific proof". (Sputum! )

[jjj]

Please have another good look at the Wicki layout, for it lends itself to all genre of music. Also, the hand span of four to five octaves, which adds so much more richness to the melody, is just impossible on the common zebra piano keyboard.
The main reason why the traditional zebra piano keyboard requires 48 separate scales to learn (http://evanlenz.net/blog/2008/01/27/manual-symmetry/ ) is, because of its irregular keyboard layout. Whereas Wicki's button keyboard is isomorphic (of “same shape”) and regular pattern. The Thummer and Jammer are at the moment the only innovative instruments (not available yet) benefiting from the Wicki layout and I plan to solder my own keyboard adapter as plug-in to my Synth.

[jjj]

Old habits die hard... isn't it?
Jeeze, I promised myself to remain mentally flexible until I die, for I have seen too many oldies ending up stubborn and greedy. I don't want to let that happen to me. It's easy, once one is aware of it.
Even now, into my age pension, I'm willing & ready to learn another keyboard layout and notation.
I have to blame myself for not having discovered the Wicki layout earlier. Partly, because Internet Info wasn't available. But now that realize its advantages, I see the salvation or fulfillment of my musical ambitions in it, for Wicki offers me a chance to catch up in a fraction of time, compared to the common zebra piano layout and notation. Thus far, I had to put up with the fact that I failed to ever play the keyboard proficiently. What a turn around; not to be missed!
Somehow (?) I knew that there must be "a logically more correct way to play the keyboard". Search and you'll find! Thanks to my nosiness I got there, while many so-called "musical experts" still tap in the dark.

[David Schwab]

This is true with the Wicki keyboard layout, but untrue with zebra keyboard. Quick test: First ask you pianist son to play a simple song first in C-major and then the same song in C#-major and see what happens!

What the hell are you talking about? Do you even know? I don't have to ask a pianist, I asked myself to play a C# scale on my keyboard. Guess what? I remembered the fingering and the notes for that scale! You know why? Because I ALREADY LEARNED IT. ONCE! I don't even have to look at the keys. I can even start on the second note and play a nodal scale!

Do you think experienced musicians forget how to play?

My son is 16 and is not a musician, he's an artist. He draws. He doesn't know any scales, but he can play music by ear, and the first thing he figured out was the beginning to the song Freehand by Gentle Giant? If you are not familiar, it's tricky music to play.

I was playing the accordion for over 10 years? We must be total failures... according to your "scientific proof". (Sputum! )

That's your problem. You learned on a different system than the piano at a time in your life when it was easier to learn things. If you aren't good after 10 years, I can't help you. You have no musical aptitude.

Most people learn everything they know after about 6 months, and then perfect that. Most people stop having to thinking about scales after 1 year. I was as technically competent on bass after my first year as I am 37 years later, but now I know what notes to play!

No one said anything about "scientific proof" expect you. But I can sitdown and play scales without thinking about it, and I play keyboards once every few months or so... certainly not every day. But I remember what I learned 30 years ago. So that's all the proof I need.

There's nothing wrong about alternative controllers. I'll even be the first to say I think the Dvorak keyboard is better than the QWERTY, since the QWERTY was designed to slow typist down so that the old mechanical typewriters wouldn't jam, so it was never made for speed. But I type on a QWERTY.

But the piano keyboard has worked well for quite a long time, even after they added the accidentals (black keys).

I don't know what's wrong with you or Mr. Lenz, but I was just listening to Herbie Hancock, and he doesn't sound like he was having a problem with the "zebra" keys. So it might be perfect to you, but I doubt it will cure all your problems when it comes to playing keyboard.

[Enzo]

jjj, I wish you well, I thought we had a friendy difference of opinion, but now you are growing hostile. I can imagine why all those experts and warriors went "into hiding," they got tired of beating the dead horse. With your five emotional posts in a row there, I have just tired of it myself.

Best wishes, I hope this project takes you where you wish.

[David Schwab]

...but so much C20 music lies a bit beyond major and minor scales, and is to some extent modal. Most familiar example of this is the blues scale, which of course is everywhere in popular music of the last 50 yrs. In C I think that's C - Eb - F - Gb - G - Bb - C. I haven't studied your keyboard layout but it seems to me that in giving you the major and minor scales handy and easy it's made playing at least a blues scale very tricky indeed. I can't tell you what the Locrian C scale is, but I bet that doesn't sit too easy on it either. Etcetera.

I'd suggest that the standard keyboard is what it is because, although apparently overcomplex at the start, it doesn't put a ceiling on your playing later. Tell you what, play Stormy Weather on that thing and I'll give you a used harmonica.

You are talking to someone that obviously doesn't know anything about music theory since he has said a few things that don't make sense, like using a capo on a guitar will not work for major or minor keys (all fingering on a guitar is the same for any given position, and a guitar is not major or minor), so he sure wouldn't know a lydian scale from a dorian.

That's why I told him guitars are not diatonic. using a capo on something like a Sitar would be another matter entirely.

This guy never got the hang of playing keyboards, and obviously doesn't want to put any effort into it. Or maybe it's not his thing. I was a classically trained tubist, but I couldn't make a decent sound on a trumpet to save my life!

I'm good on keys, but I like strings better, so that's where I devote my effort.

Maybe we will find his true calling, but he has a ways to go beyond a keyboard layout, as far as knowing about music. I like having the chromaticism of the standard piano keyboard. Intervals are evenly spaced, and it's visually logical. After you have been playing a while, you can just throw your hands down and they will make meaningful sounds, because you know how far to spread your fingers. Works the same way on stringed instruments. Muscle memory is all you need to learn scales. It's mindless repetition, and you no longer need to think about how to play a scale, or ride a bike.

Learning scales is a necessity when you are starting out. Then music theory can become a chain around your ankle. It's best to learn that stuff and then neatly put it aside and just make music... Scales, shmales! just make up some scales like Alan Holdsworth does!

[Alex R]

My school used to have a brass band. When I was eleven they recruited me and gave me a french horn. What they did was to coach us all separately on our own, in a mercilessly repetitive way, then only bring us all together for the performance itself. I sounds strange I know, but otherwise we would definitely have distracted one another, so really that was the only way you could have a band in that school. Anyhow I spent all year learning this number, note by note and space by space. I practised it at home and they drilled me on Friday lunchtimes. I played it and played it but it wasn't until half way through the final performance I realised it was fucking Tit Willow. If they'd told me in the first place I could have played it fine, but what they wanted was drilling, discipline and so forth. Well that was the end of my formal music education, I've been feeling my way ever since and I prefer it.

What I mean is, the system isn't the important thing - like you say David you just have to get it done and get it out of the way don't you? That's why I like playing harmonica - music first, system second (if you ever get to it).

Hey jjj, the Stormy Weather challenge still stands, how about it?

Did you ever read Accordion Crimes? That's a good book.

[jjj]

What the hell are you talking about?

I'm talking about that you should ask your beloved son to play a simple melody on the piano keyboard in C-major and then play the same melody in C#-major. Believe me it's not the same finger pattern. Unless he keeps practicing this and the other 10 scales regularly, he won't be able to play it in those scales as good as in C-major.

Do you think experienced musicians forget how to play?

I'm sure they need to keep playing in all scales or they will have difficulties. With Wicki this won't be necessary.

My son is 16 and is not a musician, he's an artist. He draws. He doesn't know any scales, but he can play music by ear, and the first thing he figured out was the beginning to the song Freehand by Gentle Giant? If you are not familiar, it's tricky music to play.

I play by ear too, but didn't manage to play the zebra keyboard in all scales. I won't have this problem with the Wicky layout.

That's your problem. You learned on a different system than the piano at a time in your life when it was easier to learn things. If you aren't good after 10 years, I can't help you. You have no musical aptitude.

That's right... my problem was that I was born into a materialistically poor East-German family and so, coerced to have "no musical aptitude"... if that's O.K. with you? Aged 15, I started to learn the piano accordion and played it pretty well by ear, but only in C-major and A-minor.

Most people learn everything they know after about 6 months, and then perfect that. Most people stop having to thinking about scales after 1 year. I was as technically competent on bass after my first year as I am 37 years later, but now I know what notes to play!

Yes, the Wicki keyboard is going to do the trick for me; better late then never!

No one said anything about "scientific proof" expect you. But I can sitdown and play scales without thinking about it, and I play keyboards once every few months or so... certainly not every day. But I remember what I learned 30 years ago. So that's all the proof I need.

Are you taking about guitar or bass, but I think the zebra piano keyboard is another matter. So, you play the piano in all major and minor scales equally well? Sorry, I can't believe you, to say the least. On the Wicki keyboard that's no problem, because the fingering patterns are the same for all scales; not so with the irregular zebra layout.

But the piano keyboard has worked well for quite a long time, even after they added the accidentals (black keys).

Yes paper & pen also worked well for a long time, but computers are better, aren't they? Obviously, professional pianist Evan Lenz has a very different opinion on that. Whom should I believe?

I don't know what's wrong with you or Mr. Lenz, but I was just listening to Herbie Hancock, and he doesn't sound like he was having a problem with the "zebra" keys. So it might be perfect to you, but I doubt it will cure all your problems when it comes to playing keyboard.

Something is wrong with Arthur and Franz as well, because they insist that the alternative keyboard is better: "If I were to begin my career anew it would be on this keyboard." - Arthur Rubinstein
"This invention will have replaced the present piano keyboard in fifty years' time!" - Franz Liszt
Yet, it didn't happen!? >>> For obvious reasons music teachers, music schools and people like you (and your mates) make sure that progressive piano keyboard and notation layouts are flatly dismissed. Lucky we got the great Mr Evan Lenz and others working hard to implement innovative means to facilitate the learning process. The Thummer and Jammer people are pretty progressive, too!