Searching for the best Kbd layout of them all?

[jjj]

[QUOTE=Enzo;55219]

jjj, I wish you well, I thought we had a friendy difference of opinion, but now you are growing hostile.

Difference in opinions is often confused or might be misinterpreted as hostility, but rest assured I'm only defending my opinion on the matter. How about accusing the other bloke of "growing hostile", to be fair? Or do you expect me to lay down and just agree that Mr. Evan Lenz and I don't know much about music?

I can imagine why all those experts and warriors went "into hiding," they got tired of beating the dead horse.

Nothing of the sorts... There too, my idea of Klavarskribo and my innovative notation has been downtrodden until they came to their senses. So, these facts have to be mentioned and defended or the discussion gets boring. Here even the Wicki layout is being considered to be inferior to the zebra layout...

With your five emotional posts in a row there, I have just tired of it myself.

That what happens, because you expected me to have no opinion on my own. On the other side I have no qualms to accept logically correct arguments, because I want to benefit from constructive criticism. By sorting it out I make sure it remains constructive.

Best wishes, I hope this project takes you where you wish.

How could I not wish you the same and I'm confident that it will. In the worst case I buy the Thummer if I can afford it.

[Steve Conner]

I think my challenge still stands to play the blues on a Wicki/Hayden keyboard.

Personally, I have a theory that I call "Creative limitations". It's a theory that I've come across empirically in my 20 years of being a mediocre amateur musician.

What the theory basically says is that limitations are a vital part of creativity. If you had unlimited musical powers of expression, you could get so confused that you'd never write anything, because you wouldn't know where to start.

The black and white keys on the piano are one such limitation. Centuries ago, it didn't even have any black keys, so all music had to be completely diatonic or modal, and in a limited number of keys. The lovely harmonies you hear in choral music are a result of this limitation. (And the further limitation that it had to be performed in a church with a very long reverberation time.)

When the black keys were added, it made the instrument able to play diatonically in any key, or modally, or whatever. However, the theories of harmony developed with white keys only continued to be taught and applied. The ultimate example of this is Bach's Well-Tempered Clavier pieces: there are 48, a prelude and a fugue for each of the 12 major and minor keys, all of them diatonic to their key, such that if you transposed them to C or A minor, you could play them with white keys only apart from an accidental here and there.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Well-Tempered_Clavier

(jjj's worst nightmare, I think: he would expect to be able to play all of them on his Wicki keyboard after learning just one prelude and one fugue. But this misses the point, since each one of the "48" is a beautiful and unique composition.)

As for capos, transposition and major/minor keys on the guitar, well like other posters have said, the guitar is not at all diatonic, in the sense of how I explained the piano to be diatonic above. If a guitarist wants to play diatonic music, he has to learn all of the chord tensions needed to harmonise each note of the scale.

Actually playing them is easy: if you use barre chords, you only need to know one major and one minor chord shape. For diatonic melodies, you only need one major scale and one minor scale. Barre chords and box scales are your Wicki keyboard for the guitar.

The hard bit is remembering which degrees of the scale want the major and minor thirds and sevenths. This is the very thing that the piano keyboard remembers for you, but only if you're playing in C or A minor...

This is how I see it anyway, since I'm a hopeless keyboard player, but have been studying guitar for 20 years and learnt all of my music theory through the guitar.

[jjj]

jjj's worst nightmare, I think: he would expect to be able to play all of them on his Wicki keyboard after learning just one prelude and one fugue. But this misses the point, since each one of the "48" is a beautiful and unique composition.

Hope not! The zebra keyboard looks pretty and the only thing I object to is its irregular layout, requiring to learn and regularly practice the diverse fingering of 48 scales! It's absurd! The Wicki layout rescues me from this tyranny. There are a few more button keyboard layouts, such as Janko, C & B system, concertina & bandoneon, which offer the same advantage, but the Wicki seems to be the best of them all!

Actually, the reason why I tabled the Wicki layout, Klavarskribo and my innovative Wicki notation is, because originally I searched for the easiest to way to learn and play a musical instrument and only recently discovered them and wished I only discovered it earlier. In addition most of what I know about music theory stems form my piano accordion and organ playing and building experience.
That's why I welcome constructive criticism. Yet, it seems the good folk of the concertina forum already sorted it all out and so, there's little left to constructively discuss; i.e. only lot of potential for futile arguments left, isn't it? I say that, because so far nothing new was mentioned, which lessens the validity of the Wicki keyboard layout, its innovative notation and Klavarskribo over the common zebra piano layout and notation.
Of course I'm ready to amend my project at any time for as long valid insight justifies it. That's the whole purpose of this exercise.
So, I thank you all for bothering with it... I suppose my "homework" is done and no further research is needed.
Apart from my "musical layman whistling success", (I mean, after all I sold 1000th of recordings, performed in TV-shows, movies and commercials etc. http://jdrinda.tripod.com) I always aspired to enjoy playing bandoneon, accordion and organ sounds. Now, that MIDI makes it all possible and it's getting better all the time, I have all reasons to be confident that my remaining musical aspiration will be met, very soon.

[jjj]

O.K., since most of you seem to disagree/ dislike the Wicki layout and my innovative notation, how about playing the Janko piano layout and Klavarskribo notation?
It's chromatic, like the traditional zebra layout, yet its keys are regular or equal in shape; i.e. no higher positioned, narrow black keys and irregular layout, such as the zebra piano. The Klavarskribo notation is WYSIWYG and sooo much easier to read and play than common notation.

Common notation can be OCR scanned into MIDI and then automatically transcribed into Klavarscribo via a cost-free (Klavarskribo) software.
In other words, the Janko layout offers the same as the zebra piano keyboard, minus learning and practicing countless scales(!!), because (like with the Wicki layout) playing another scale requires just moving the hand to the right or left! (The disadvantage is that the Wicki allows a hand span of 4 to 5 octaves. I don't want to lose that!)
I even build a cheap, removable Janko adapter onto my Synth, which you can easily glue together: http://www.live-styler.de/home/Janko%20Project.pdf

[Enzo]

I'll try again. And really, I don't care if you want a different thing than I do, that's OK. You refer to learning to play on all scales. You are not. You are learning one scale. All you are doing is moving the notes it plays over one way or the other. If I play a guitar in E, I am all the way down at the end of the neck. If I want to play in F, I have to move what I am doing up the neck a fret. But it is not the same. I no longer have open strings in my key, for one thing. I have to play differently in F than in E. I find that enhances my play, and I really do play different licks in F than in E. My admittedly limited creative juices find new finger patterns. I could just capo at the first fret, and then finger as usual, but the notes would come out in F. But in the playing sense, I am still playing in E, just the notes are transposed up one. In doing that, I learn nothing new.

When I was a kid, I took piano lessons from age 5 to 10 more or less. I was not talented, but I could sight read within a couple years well enough. I did not find it that difficult. Just as I have done on guitar, I did on the piano - at least to a point - I learned the relationship between the notes. I wasn't learning songs in keys.

AS I said before, when I play in C on a piano certain things tend to come out. But when I move to the black keys, completely different music comes out. If I had just transposed the keyboard from C to something else, I would still be playing the exact same patterns as I did in C except the notes would be moved.

And that is your proposal. FInger in one key only all the time. Just move the notes around under those keys. To you, learning one finger pattern is good. To me it limits your creativity, as if to say "OK fellows, I am going to play my thing, what key you want the notes to be in?"

[jjj]

Hi Enzo,

I thank you for not having given up on me.
I'm sorry if my word choice came through as "hostile". I was just defending my position and that might easily sound hostile. It's, because writing is different to verbally discussing such tricky matters.

Even for only one pattern in major & minor I have to learn many chord fingerings in three inversions for major and minor scale. Hard enough!
I agree that it's considerably cutting down on having to learn 47 times more of the same and that's the great advantage of the Janko layout, which the Wicki layout even surpasses!
After all, I'm more interested in enjoying musical creativity than musical theory and dexterity. It won't make me lazy either, for I make up for it by playing many more complex melodies in shorter time and in all major and minor scales! What more I want?
My over ten years of piano accordion experience taught me all of that. I don't know much about guitars; all I Imagine is that a capo just clamps the strings higher or lower and that equals a scale shift. As mentioned, I was pretty good at playing the piano accordion in C-major and A-minor and found it absurd and boring relearn to play the accordion in the remaining 11 major & minor scales and keep on practicing them forever.... or longer!

Albeit it's theoretically correct to claim that the zebra piano layout as well "only" requires to shift the same fingering patterns up or down the keyboard in order to play a different scale, it's not quite the same!! In fact the piano layout is that irregular ...or that easy that I'm totally unable to transfer the same some melody (I play so well in C-major) into say C-sharp! That means, the zebra piano layout is badly designed!! It lacks uniformity!
And that's where the uniform/ regular Janko and Wicki layout proves to be far superior to the zebra piano layout! Simple as that!
In other words, the latter creates an artificial need for learning and regular practice, which only serves to bolsters the pockets of music teachers and conservatories personnel.

I hope, I expressed myself (or be understood) better this time, but one thing is sure: I didn't mean it to be hostile!

[jjj]

Hi Enzo,

I thank you for not having given up on me.
I'm sorry if my word choice came through as "hostile". I was just defending my position and that might easily sound hostile. It's, because writing is different to verbally discussing such tricky matters.

Even for only one pattern in major & minor I have to learn many chord fingerings in three inversions for major and minor scale. Hard enough!
I agree that it's considerably cutting down on having to learn 47 times more of the same and that's the great advantage of the Janko layout, which the Wicki layout even surpasses!
After all, I'm more interested in enjoying musical creativity than musical theory and dexterity. It won't make me lazy either, for I make up for it by playing many more complex melodies in shorter time and in all major and minor scales! What more I want?
My over ten years of piano accordion experience taught me all of that. I don't know much about guitars; all I imagine is that a capo just clamps the strings higher or lower and that equals a scale shift. I was pretty good at playing the piano accordion in C-major and A-minor and found it absurd and boring relearn to play the accordion in the remaining 11 major & minor scales and keep on practicing them forever... or longer!

Albeit it's theoretically correct to claim that the zebra piano layout as well "only" requires to shift the same fingering patterns up or down the keyboard in order to play a different scale, practically the fingering is not quite the same!! In fact the piano layout is that irregular that I'm totally unable to transfer the same same melody (I play so well in C-major) into say C-sharp!
That means, the zebra piano layout is badly designed, for it lacks uniformity!
That's where the uniform/ regular Janko and Wicki layout proves to be far superior to the zebra piano layout!
In other words, the latter creates an artificial need for learning and regular practice, which only serves to bolsters the pockets of music teachers and conservatories personnel. You mentioned that it's "part of the magic to play in a different key" and I'll be able to do exactly that with the Wicki layout, yet without the undue repeated scale practice, tears and sweat; i.e. without that "masochistic bit", thank you!
My ultimate aspiration in this context is to play a melody, like a singer or whistler, without bothering about scales and music theory; being unaware of which scale I play. I'm confident that either the Wicki layout enables me to realize my aim. I searched a long time for that illusive "easiest to learn & play keyboard layout". If there would be something better, you bet, I would aspire to it... but so far only the Wicki layout seems to deliver it all.

Not sure... having expressed myself better this time (?), but one thing is sure... I didn't mean it to be hostile!

[David Schwab]

I'm talking about that you should ask your beloved son to play a simple melody on the piano keyboard in C-major and then play the same melody in C#-major. Believe me it's not the same finger pattern. Unless he keeps practicing this and the other 10 scales regularly, he won't be able to play it in those scales as good as in C-major.

Sorry, this is where your logic falls down flat. You have to learn scales. It doesn't matter what the scale is, you have to learn it. On a keyboard each scale, as well as chords, are each in a different location. However the notes aren't. So once you know your notes, and you learn a scale, you know where to put your fingers. The keys could be in a different arrangement, but you still have to shift your hand.

My son doesn't know a C scale from an F#, so to him, one is as hard as the other. The basic mechanism of playing a C scale is not much different from a C#, you just play different notes. But you are making the same hand motions... three fingers, and then pivot.

You are implying that a C scale is easier to play than a C#. It's not. They are pretty much all the same. If you don't know them they are all hard. if you know them they are all easy. The only thing you have to do is learn where the notes are, and then which fingering to use. But when you learn to play an instrument, that's what you learn.

You might argue that it's easier to learn on your keyboard layout, but that has nothing to do with easier to play.

Once you learn it, you know it. Then you practice to get better at it. If you don't practice, you stay at the same level you where when you started.

So explain why my son wouldn't be able to play other scales as easy as a C? Why would they be harder to play? Because they involve black keys?

If you hang your hand limply over the keys, with your fingers hanging, the black keys are just as easy to press as the white keys.

Try making a keyboard with all the notes, natural and accidental, right next to each other, and then tell me how easy it is to play! By your logic, this would make all scales as easy as a C! See where that doesn't work?

I'm sure they need to keep playing in all scales or they will have difficulties.

Why would you have to do that? I don't have to do that any more than I have to keep playing just to keep limber. I haven't practiced on piano in about 10 years, and still I can play everything I already know with no problem. All the scales I learned, songs, chords, etc. This is true of anyone who has gotten anywhere near proficient on an instrument. You don't have to think about how to play a scale once you have memorized how to play the scale. You just play.

With Wicki this won't be necessary.

You still have to learn to play it. And practice.

I play by ear too, but didn't manage to play the zebra keyboard in all scales.

Instead of saying "I was never very good on piano" and coming up with a solution... i.e., practice more, get a good teacher, or switch to another instrument, you are blaming the piano keyboard for your failings. Surly it has to be the piano keyboard holding you back.. can't possibly be you, right?

My son tried guitar in middle school and decided once he had to play chords he didn't like it. He didn't blame the neck of the guitar as being too hard to use. He just decided that wasn't the instrument for him, and he wasn't interested in putting any more time into it.

You need to be honest and say you don't care for black and white piano keyboards, and stop blaming them for you not being any good on piano or organ. I couldn't get a good tone out of a trumpet, but I knew I couldn't play a trumpet, not that the trumpet was made wrong.

Not everyone has talent on an instrument. Not everyone can sing. Not everyone can paint. Not everyone can dance. Not everyone can run a quarter mile in X seconds. Get the point?

my problem was that I was born into a materialistically poor East-German family and so, coerced to have "no musical aptitude"... if that's O.K. with you? Aged 15, I started to learn the piano accordion and played it pretty well by ear, but only in C-major and A-minor.

Your problem is you avoided the black keys from the start, and only leaned to play on the white keys. It has nothing to do with being "materialistically poor". You just didn't try to learn more.

My family didn't have much money. My dad was born in 1900, and his family was so poor his mother had to feed them birdseed at one point. But he taught himself to play mandolin, which was a popular instrument at the turn of the Century. My mom was born 1912 in NYC, and taught herself to play guitar, and was a jazz singer. My brother played drums for a while in his teens, but wasn't as good as his friend who was playing longer, so he got discouraged and stopped playing. But he became an excellent artist and photographer and is now a professor, teaching historic photographic technique.

I wanted a piano when I was a kid, but we couldn't afford it. I taught myself to play drums first, and after my brother sold his set, I got a book "how to play guitar in 5 minutes" and learned a few chords on an old nylon string guitar my dad bought at a house sale. I liked it and learned every song I could. I played when I got up before school. sat and played along with music on TV. I came home and played at lunch time. I played before and after dinner. I played all the time! it wasn't work, I was having fun.

When I was in my freshman year of high school I started messing with the grand piano they had in the music room, and picked up the sheet music to "I Am the Walrus" by the Beatles. That's in B by the way. So the first chord I learned on piano was B major. That has two black keys. I worked my way though all the chords in that, and now I knew those chords.

Now 36 years layer I still remember those chords. I don't have to practice them all over and over. And since then I have learned other chords, and scales.

I mainly play bass, and I like 5 string basses best. I can argue that 5 string basses are better than 4 string basses, and give my reasons, but that's just silly. But I do know that when I run into something I don't know how to play, I sit and work it out until I get it. Then I have it, and don't haver to do that all over again.

So, you play the piano in all major and minor scales equally well? Sorry, I can't believe you, to say the least.

Yes, equally as well, but I'm not a great piano player, but I can play what I need to play. That's not my instrument. But... pick anyone who is good, and I mentioned Herbie Hancock the other day, I'm sure he can with his eyes closed.

We have all heard the stories about J.S. Bach being so damn good while warming up that he scared away another player who had challenged him to a "play off." And Mozart used to play up side down and backwards.

I had a music teacher in high school, and his main instrument was the saxophone, but he could play scales on piano with both hands, simultaneously, in opposite directions! Two different scales too. At least 5 other keyboard players I know can do the same thing. Why? because they practiced scales, one by one, very slowly, until they learned how to play them. No, I can't do that, but I never tried to be that good on piano. My time went into guitar and bass.

Yes, the Wicki keyboard is going to do the trick for me; better late then never!

And that's wonderful, really.

On the Wicki keyboard that's no problem, because the fingering patterns are the same for all scales; not so with the irregular zebra layout.

And it's like that on guitar and bass too. You can play one major scale fingering up and down the neck. But that's not always the best way to do things. Sometimes I start on my middle finger, and sometimes I start on my little finger... all depends on where I'm going and what pattern I'm after.

The piano keyboard is very logical as far as having all the natural keys laid out in order, with the accidentals differentiated. The only reason it's like that is because at one time there was only the white keys!

It might not be the best system, just as the QWERTY typewriter keyboard isn't, but you can be assured of always having an instrument to play when you are away from your instrument.

Yes paper & pen also worked well for a long time, but computers are better, aren't they?

For some people, yes, for others no. I don't paint anymore, but I'm a graphic artist.. all on the Macintosh computer. My son draws, but don't care for doing art on the computer. I program all my drum tracks using the mouse, instead of playing them, and I often do that with the keyboard parts too! Why? Not because it's easier... sometimes we just like things a certain way.

[jjj]

You have to learn scales.

Yes, that's true with the zebra piano. That's why I'm so fond of the Wicki layout, where practicing only one scale is necessary.

You don't have to think about how to play a scale once you have memorized how to play the scale.

I play any melody on the piano accordion by ear in C-major or A-minor, but I cannot play the same melody in any other scale, unless I practice that scale and it's chords for ages. It's, because the black keys have only half the width of the white keys and that makes the zebra layout so terribly irregular. Wicki hasn't got this problem!

You still have to learn to play it. And practice.

Yes, but there's a big difference whether I have to learn the pattern (of all vital chords; and it's three inversions) of one (only!!) major and minor scale or if I have to learn 47 times more of the same!! Is that so hard to understand and confirm? Here's what the pianist Evan Lenz wrote, after he contacted me and I sent him my Janko project: http://evanlenz.net/blog/2008/01/27/manual-symmetry/

Instead of saying "I was never very good on piano" and coming up with a solution... i.e., practice more...

Obviously, Richter, Liszt and even piano expert Evan Lenz disagrees with your solution to the problem.

Your problem is you avoided the black keys from the start, and only leaned to play on the white keys. It has nothing to do with being "materialistically poor". You just didn't try to learn more.

Not quite, for my problem is rather that I refuse to bow to the absurdity of having to learn and keep practicing 48 irregular major and minor scales... while the same key shaped Wicki layout makes it possible to get away with less tears & sweat, by learning and practicing only one major and minor scale pattern!! Get the point?
True, "it has nothing to do with materialistically poor", because this sentence has been quoted out of context. Yet, being born into a materialistically poor family has everything to do with the fact that I had no chance to learn to play the piano or accordion at an early age, until (aged 16 or so, when) I was able to purchase a second hand piano accordion myself.

... pick anyone who is good, and I mentioned Herbie Hancock the other day, I'm sure he can with his eyes closed.

Sviatoslav Teofilovich Richter, Daniel Barenboim had no problems with it either, but many great professionals, such as Arthur Rubinstein or Franz Liszt later on prefer the equally shaped Janko piano layout to the irregularly shaped zebra and so does smart Evan Lenz; I'm amazed that you better. How come?
Most hobby musicians (like me) just like to enjoy a fair bit of musical creativity without wasting money on zebra piano music teachers or conservatory. The Wicki layout offers even more.
Let's face it, the zebra piano layout was invented before the Janko layout and the Wicki layout was invented a little later. Teachers of that era felt threatened by these new layouts; fearing income losses and so, they advised their students, such as Richter, Rubinstein, Barenboim etc. to learn the zebra piano layout and that's how this "flawed zebra culture" grew and anything innovative (even then, when it was 20x more logically correct) was flatly rejected. This explains ...why old habits dye hard. How regressive and boring!
I dare to brake the habit and allow myself the luxury to benefit from the advantages of the Wicki layout. The innovative Thummer and Jammer (not available yet) do the same and I can't see anything wrong with that! Anyone opposing the benefits 'doesn't know much about music' (as you mentioned).

The piano keyboard is very logical as far as having all the natural keys laid out in order, with the accidentals differentiated. The only reason it's like that is because at one time there was only the white keys!

That's why these awkwardly added narrow black keys are to blame for the irregular layout and it's consequences. Janko, Wicki etc. recognized and solved this very problem elegantly, didn't they? So, why should I bother with the flawed zebra piano layout, when I can enjoy something easier and better? Makes sense, doesn't it?

[Steve Conner]

This is one of the most interesting debates I've seen in a long time.

I tried to explain this to the singer from our band, who studied piano at school. Her comment was "What do you mean the scales on the piano are all different shapes? They're all the same."

She obviously learnt to ignore the distinction between black and white keys on the piano, which is the root of the problem we're arguing over here.

If you ignore the distinction and treat them as just 12 keys per octave, then it makes your C and A-minor stuff harder, sure, because you need awareness of the black keys you're not touching. But it means that the scale patterns are usable in every other key, it just happens that the keys you're missing out are sometimes white instead of black.

Try making a keyboard with all the notes, natural and accidental, right next to each other, and then tell me how easy it is to play! By your logic, this would make all scales as easy as a C! See where that doesn't work?

The irony here is that you just described the fretboard of a guitar or bass, and yes, since you can play a scale in any key with the same pattern on such an instrument, all the scales are "as easy as a C". But that's still harder than playing a C major scale on the piano by naively prodding the white keys. You need to remember the pattern of tones and semitones.

[jjj]

She obviously learnt to ignore the distinction between black and white keys on the piano, which is the root of the problem we're arguing over here. ...You need to remember the pattern of tones and semitones.

Jeez, I wished I could put it that elegantly into English (sorry, into "Scottish") as you just did! Billy Connolly was pretty good at it, too. We met trice and Billy asked me to perform for him on his "World Tour Of Australia" TV series. Maybe you even saw me there making a fool of myself?
Many Scots & English met me afterwards at Sydney's Circular Quay, where I was licensed to entertained tourists for 12 long years? They told me that I was on their list of "things to see...". I told them: "In Sydney we got three tourist attractions: the Opera House, the coat hanger (Harbour Bridge) and me. Now, you have seen it all!"
Back to work... That irregular layout makes the piano keyboard so hard to play. It affects the left hand as well. The real purpose of promoting this flawed piano layout seems to be solely intended to prolong the study time, bolster music teacher's pockets and to distinguish themselves from non-professional musicians.
So, there's really no logical reason why the Janko piano keyboard was and still is rejected. Personally I prefer the Wicki layout, because it allows a hand span of four to five octaves. Try that on a common piano!

[jjj]

Since the piano has a chromatic scale each key is only half a tune different (higher or lower) from the next key. Yet, it's impossible to use it in lets say white keys (only) "uniform" keyboard layout. It would get too long...
That's why Janko worked out a way of equalizing the chromatic piano layout and Wicki succeeded in creating an equalized and compact keyboard layout, which could offer pianists unprecedented creative possibilities.
I cannot see why a piano could not be made with buttons, instead keys. Incidentally, in all accordion competitions speed playing was won by button accordion players. Have a look what this 15- y.o. button player "buttons together": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MNJrqaNEmuA http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4lxrZ5ey9h8
Try that on a piano!

[Enzo]

And I am sure there are guitar players who can play extremely fast on a nonstandard neck. And if you apply yourself to your unusualy keyboard and practice it, no doubt you will become quite proficient playing it.

To say the arrangement persists to line the pockets of teachers is silly. The piano keyboard persists because it is an established instrument. It has been around for hundreds of years. The crass commercialism of today was not the modus operandi of the masters in Beethoven's day. You want to re-engineer it into something different, that's fine, but it is no longer a piano. A piano is a piano. It isn't wrong, it just is what it is. You might make something you like better, but don't expect the world to follow along.

One day on your we were bored, and it was just me and the horn section hanging around. I suggested that the saxophonist put his mouthpiece and neck on the end of the flute. And wonder of wonders, it even played. I don't think the scale was in tune with anything else, but that would just be a matter of length. I called it the "flax." It was fun, but no one thought to do anything with it. But we might have convinced outselves that gee it is so much easier to make proper ambuture on the sax mouthpiece then blowing across the flute. But in so doing, we would no longer be playing the flute. We would be playing as reed instrument.

And how the hell do you spell ambiture anyway? Embiture, embuture, amburture? AH found it: embouture.

You can refer to a few notable performers using some alternative key arrangement. But ther are always people wanting to run contrary to the crowd. It is not evidence of superiority. it is just evidence that someone wanted to master the thing. For every great player using the odd keyboard, there are a thousand great players who use the conventional one. ANd I have to think if you had asked Rachmaninov, Ray CHarles, SCott Joplin, Keith EMerson, and so on if they ever found the piano keyboard difficult because of its layout, I bet they'd look at you like you were crazy. Jerry Lee Lewis... well I am not so sure there. SOunded killer though.

Accordions and concertinas are not pianos, so comparing feats on them is pointless. You don't think we could come up with things on the piano that would be difficult on your board?

[Steve Conner]

Well, I think everyone has a point. (And no, I'm not related to Billy Connolly, at least not that I know of )

On one hand, if an instrument is easy to play, and another instrument is difficult to play, why make life hard by choosing the difficult one? It's a valid point.

But on the other hand, it comes down to the creative limitations thing I mentioned earlier. If we took Scott Joplin's regular piano away and made him play a Wicki keyboard, he'd probably start sounding like an accordion player. Rabbits have big ears so they can hear predators creeping up on them, and piano music sounds the way it does because it's played on pianos.

Also, technique isn't everything in musicianship. On the guitar, we all know guys like Steve Vai and Allan Holdsworth who have incredible technical skills, and use them to play boring, random garbage at incredible speed. There's another level of musicianship on top of that, and it's independent from the technique part. It runs on technique the same way that software runs on a computer, and developing technique is easy compared to developing this higher level. It's the difference between being able to recite the phone book really fast, and writing a new play.

I think Dick Dale summed it up best when he said: "I can play any instrument and make you think that I went to the school of Juillard, because I play from my heart." That's what it's about, not bickering over keyboard layouts.

[jjj]

But there are always people wanting to run contrary to the crowd.

I think it's far more than that. In the case of Rubinstein and Liszt, even Evan Lenz and my unimportance, the real reason we prefer uniformity in regard to keyboard layouts is, because it's simply makes sense to cut down on undue complexity!
I rather prefer to invest in constructive, vital and meaningful practice than in boring, tiresome non-nonsensical practice. I want/ have to enjoy practice or it kills my ambition.

Rachmaninov, Ray CHarles, SCott Joplin, Keith EMerson, and so on if they ever found the piano keyboard difficult because of its layout, I bet they'd look at you like you were crazy.

Like Rubinstein, Liszt, even Evan Lenz ...and my unimportance, we all were mislead by either ignorance or sordid teachers and thus, the innovative layouts from Janko and Wicki, were trampled on. What a shame!
Still today we are stuck with this flawed zebra piano layout forcing students to practice 48 scales, countless chord & inversions.
No wonder many hobby musicians just give up practicing this undue fluff & puff. I don't blame them. Every time I sit down on my zebra Elka organ, I soon get put off by its irregular zebra layout complexity, for I just refuse to suffer boring, tiresome non-nonsensical practice. There must be a better way... and there is! Thus, I'm looking forward to the day I can plug-in my Wicki layout and enjoy the look of zebras in the wild on TV only.
Beside, I didn't mean the above message to be offensive or hostile...