help me understand why my bandmate's amp is louder than mine

[mlove3]

I use a homebrew based on an AB6165 bassamn chassis, ch sw, all the dirt comes from the amp. I use a closed back single 12" cab.
My bandmate's amp is a hot rod deluxe, his pedals go thru the clean ch, a hardwire distortion, a pork loin (which I beleive he leaves on a lot) and an OCD.
We play loud onstage, like too loud. I switch off the master vol for solos so the amp is dimed, no headroom left, and I'm barely cutting through.
I peaked at his volume and master settings on his amp, they're around 3??!!
I also looked at the design of the clean ch of the HR deluxe, very similiar to my homebrew, go figure.
I know those pedals can crank out some gain but man is he loud. His tone is very beady and hard edged but I admit it cuts through everything. he's usually the loudest thing in the room.

I can't imagine his HR deluxe has that much more headroom than my amp, 2 6L6s. I recently checked my power output, I'm about 32 W clean before distortion.

So what's up here? He seems to have much more clean bass and low mids, and volume out the wazoo. yet the amp settings are low, all tone controls around 5.

Anyone??

[loudthud]

Are your impedances matched on the Bassman?

All 12 inch speakers are not created equal. Get an EVM 12L and you'll blow him out of the room.

[mlove3]

I beleive the ab165 called for a 4 ohm load, I've got an 8 ohm celestion 75 W, that's a mismatch I know, would it make that much difference? EVs and JBLs are heavy dude!! I'm old and feeble!
I just don't understand where all his volume is coming from.

[guitician]

It could be any number of things. It is probably more that your amp is too quiet, then his is loud. Are your tubes strong and matched? What power and output transformers are in this "Homebrew"? If any part of the amps circuitry is limiting the peak drive signal to the power section you will have less output power. Simple Class A circuits can get really loud when they are driven hard by effect pedals with large output signals. What type of speaker are you using. Between speaker efficiency and ohms mismatch, you could be losing half your volume right there.

[Tele-Bob]

I beleive the ab165 called for a 4 ohm load, I've got an 8 ohm celestion 75 W, that's a mismatch I know, would it make that much difference? EVs and JBLs are heavy dude!! I'm old and feeble!
I just don't understand where all his volume is coming from.

Yes it does make a big difference. Running an 8 ohm speaker on a 4 ohm amp gives you about 1/2 the decibel level as if you'd been running a 4 ohm speaker.

Our perception of volume is very different than what you measure electronically. In other words, there are 10 bels to a "decibel." The difference from 1 decibel to 2 decibels as measured is actually 10 times louder even though your ear doesn't hear it that way.

The reason I'm saying all this is that the inefficiencies present in using an 8 ohm speaker will often manifest themselves in things like "cut" and percieved volume. Change that speaker and I'll be things get a whole better for you.

[Steve Conner]

The difference from 1 decibel to 2 decibels as measured is actually 10 times louder even though your ear doesn't hear it that way.

You got it the wrong way round. It takes a 10 times increase in power to seem twice as loud. So a 320 watt amp sounds twice as loud as a 32 watt one.

Try an experiment: Borrow one of your bandmate's distortion pedals, stick it in front of your amp and turn all the knobs up full on everything. If it still won't get loud enough, it's probably broken.

It's quite possible that a Hot Rod Deluxe could already be putting out its full power with the knobs on 3, and just start to overdrive from then on. That's not headroom, but it's subjective loudness all the same. That's the kind of trick commercial designers will play to make the amp seem louder, especially in the showroom.

I'm also a big fan of the EVM12L: it's a weapon of war. But let's make sure everything's working before we go for the nuclear option.

[mlove3]

aah, the voice of reason.

First off I can't find anything wrong with the amp, I scoped the driver and the output at a dummy 4 ohm load, looks fine, the output starts clipping at about halfway up. it's loud allright, just ask my neighbors today as I tweak and crank

yeah, perceived volume is what I think is fooling me here. As I said, his tone is piercing and very low midrangey, whether clean or dirty. I don't care for the dirty tone much, it sounds like a pedal because it is. to each his own. But it does cut thru the mix LOUD. We also put our amps right next to each other at our most regular gig which is clearly a bad idea but unavoidable because of the stage limitations.

I think you're right Steve, his amp is set around where it starts to break up, he pushes his pedals for max output and the result is a focused tight sound. I even back up when he takes a solo because the notes are so bullet like leaping out of the amp.

Asking him to turn down is pointless, it ain't gonna happen, and I have already 3 times. We've all been there, I'm not gonna ask again. and it's a big room and he wants a big sound. We miced my amp last gig and put it in the mix out front. The bar manager sat in on my rig, real good player, from my vantage point it was a little muddy and din't cut through the mix, especially with the sub woofer PA.

Oddly enough since joining this band I've gotten lots of compliments on my tone, including from him! So the tone is fine, it's just how to get louder and cleaner.

Two things, speaker and maybe open up the cabinet.

The cab is a closed back 12, I know if I open it it'll probably SEEM louder.
And the speaker. EVs are just too hugely heavy, what else for the big clean tight bottom end loud roar?? And will it make that much difference?

Or i can go his route, expensive pedals and tweak and tweak...you can see how I feel about that.

EQ in some low mids with an EQ pedal..mmm, maybe.

Buy a bigger amp??

fire away

[Steve Conner]

Even if you don't like pedals generally, you might appreciate a treble booster pedal of some sort. They're the kind of pedal that people who like amps like, if you see what I mean. They don't really do anything through a clean amp played quietly, but if you're cranking a tube amp already, they'll boost it even more, with extra cut and grind.

Weber make an EV-a-like 12" speaker, the Michigan. It's probably considerably easier to hump around than the real thing. There's also the Celestion Vintage 30.

Try to find a 4 ohm one to match your amp, or better still, just get another 8 ohm cabinet and hook them both up together. Having two speakers will help you get louder yet, and you can stack them so the top one fires closer to ear level.

[mlove3]

well, the cheapest idea is go to open up the back of the cab, see how it feels. I'm not ready to spend time and money researching and tweaking pedals just to get a louder tone. the tone of my amp is fine (the playing is sketchy!!!) so it's just find a way to get it to project a bit more. I have an empty combo cab, that was how I had it configured for years, went to the closed back to get more bass and, of all things, knock the volume down. My old band was not nealry as loud.

I'll check ebay for the EVM, a few more pounds won't kill me, especially if it sounds all that and a bag of chips.

Was just watching ac/dc live on cable from their recent tour, amazed at how clean the guitar sounds are, but loud of course. 200W marshalls will get you there!

[mlove3]

come to think of it I had an EV in a marshall combo years ago, sounded killer.
How does the EVM 12S compare to the 12L, any experience with those?

[guitician]

You got it the wrong way round. It takes a 10 times increase in power to seem twice as loud. So a 320 watt amp sounds twice as loud as a 32 watt one.

So then...ten 32 watt amps only get you twice the loudness

I guess then, them big stage setups in the '70's were all for show. Most of the "Real" loudness being provided by the PA system

Another thing to consider is what frequencies your wanting to increase in loudness. Midrange frequencies will "cut" through better, and if your tone is set to a "V" type EQ, then your never going to be as loud as your bandmate.

[mlove3]

aah, now we're on the same page guit, I think that's a big part of the issue. I used to set a much more V eq, not exactly scooped but fender-y, and now I dime the mid because I pretty much have to.
I'm leaning towards trying an EV speaker, watching a couple on ebay. I don't have any gigs until second week of dec, I hope to have something tweaked before then.

[Gibsonman63]

Volume Pots

If I am not mistaken, some of the newer Fenders use liniar taper volume pots instead of audio taper. If this is the case, your bandmate's three would be much more than 30% volume. Also, you may try a Seymore Duncan Pickup Booster or an MXR Micro Amp to boost your guitar signal a little on the front end without adding distortion.

[cminor9]

If I am not mistaken, some of the newer Fenders use liniar taper volume pots instead of audio taper. If this is the case, your bandmate's three would be much more than 30% volume. Also, you may try a Seymore Duncan Pickup Booster or an MXR Micro Amp to boost your guitar signal a little on the front end without adding distortion.

Yes, the Hot Rod Deluxes and Devilles have a linear taper for the so-called "master" volume control. And it does just what you describe.

[Steve Conner]

So then...ten 32 watt amps only get you twice the loudness

That's exactly right. Trials have shown that to give people the subjective impression of "twice as loud", you need 10dB more power, which is a factor of 10.

Sone

Gigs are louder now than they were in the 70s, too. Deep Purple could only manage a pathetic 117dB, and KISS are now up to 136. A festival-sized rig can have 50 kilowatts of amplification now.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudest_band_in_the_world