Vol knob basics.

[Chuck H]

I prefer linear tapered pots for my volumes pots. I have better control when I roll the volume knob back to clean up the signal without losing noticeable volume. I do not do volume swells. As an FYI, most guitars use audio (log) taper for volume pots.

Well if you read the discussion so far you'll see that Sea Chief isn't happy with the less gradual taper of his linear pot now. That's why we've all been suggesting an audio taper. Indeed some guys do like a linear taper. And if it's adjusting well for you then I'll guess you don't play with a high amount of clipping. If you played at the distortion levels that I sometimes use your clean zone on a linear pot would be between about .7 and .8 with almost no room for error since the taper is much faster on the low end of adjustment for a linear pot than it is for an audio.

[Sea Chief]

I prefer linear tapered pots for my volumes pots. I have better control when I roll the volume knob back to clean up the signal without losing noticeable volume. I do not do volume swells. As an FYI, most guitars use audio (log) taper for volume pots.

Hi Delta- yup as Chuck says, it's an Audio taper I surely need, if, my Linear one is same vol same vol same vol turning the knob alllllll the way, until the very last 1/8th of a turn, & it plummets from full volume to zero volume. For the life of me I cannot understand why anyone could say they would prefer this. It is for all intents & purposes, so far as I can establish, completely I mean 99.9% unnseable. I have not 0.0001% of an idea why anyone could say they find this preferable.

Yet -another- confounding thing about electric guitars/ amps; every day another sign shouts at me 'electric gtrs, Sea Chief, they & you will not/ will never ever mix/ you are not meant to understand them/ just forget it & use an acoustic only'. Very galling & frustrating considering I've played in bands, & even make my living from them.

[Delta362]

No worries. As ChuckH indicated, when my gain is lower, I can roll back the volume knob to clean up. When I play high gain, it doesn't make much difference until near the low end of the travel.

[Sea Chief]

No worries. As ChuckH indicated, when my gain is lower, I can roll back the volume knob to clean up. When I play high gain, it doesn't make much difference until near the low end of the travel.

I can only think your set up then, wiring up of it, is much different to how my linear vol pot. You just couldn't have done that 'roll back the vol' thing (an utter mystery to me itself- I will never understand this aspect) with mine, having only within the last fraction of a turn, the whole range of volume.. it just wouldn't be feasable to be in the slightest bit useable.

So yet another mystery for me to add to the list then: how your linear pot therefore (it has to be) is so completely different to mine. Honestly I just cannot believe this.

I shoulda given all this up years ago. Its like a continual never ending battle for me.

There must be some guitar god up there, with every single thing I do with electric gtrs "SC.. you are not meant to use them, understand them, you're forbidden to be able to use or understand every facet of gtrs/ amps/ attenuators, everything about the whole lot is not allowed to work with -you- but it's ok for everyone else (but as an offset, i will allow you to make a living from them)".

[Chuck H]

Maybe your lot, as with many well known guitarists, is to just use whatever works FOR THEM (or you as it were). Some players use attenuators, some dirt boxes, some both. Some use two dirt boxes in series at given settings and still dime their amps. Some dime their amps, but face them backwards and record the ambient room. Some have a collection of pedals that would make Guitar Center jealous. But what they all do is just experiment incessantly until a tone (or several, or for the occasion) works for them. Then they play. Real musicians have a way of discovering and exploit the musical properties of whatever they happen to be plugged into. Of course they seek the tones they're after too, but primarily they just want to make the notes they play do what they want almost regardless of the actual tonal properties. Which is where the term "tone is in the fingers" comes from. It's true.

Keep playing and trying new stuff. When a tone strikes you, do something with it. If NO tone ever strikes you anymore then you're sunk I guess.?.

EDIT: My point is... Be a player and not an amp or gear collector/tweaker. Most of the people here are either repair guys, engineers or, the worst of it, guys who never found tone in their fingers and chased it to the point of gear modification. That's who "I" am. In my old age I've seen the light of day. But that's real. Who are you? That's the question now.

[Sea Chief]

Maybe your lot, as with many well known guitarists, is to just use whatever works FOR THEM (or you as it were). Some players use attenuators, some dirt boxes, some both. Some use two dirt boxes in series at given settings and still dime their amps. Some dime their amps, but face them backwards and record the ambient room. Some have a collection of pedals that would make Guitar Center jealous. But what they all do is just experiment incessantly until a tone (or several, or for the occasion) works for them. Then they play. Real musicians have a way of discovering and exploit the musical properties of whatever they happen to be plugged into. Of course they seek the tones they're after too, but primarily they just want to make the notes they play do what they want almost regardless of the actual tonal properties. Which is where the term "tone is in the fingers" comes from. It's true.

Keep playing and trying new stuff. When a tone strikes you, do something with it. If NO tone ever strikes you anymore then you're sunk I guess.?.

EDIT: My point is... Be a player and not an amp or gear collector/tweaker. Most of the people here are either repair guys, engineers or, the worst of it, guys who never found tone in their fingers and chased it to the point of gear modification. That's who "I" am. In my old age I've seen the light of day. But that's real. Who are you? That's the question now.

I understand all, of this Chuck. But the last thing I am, is a gearhead over a player. Completely the opposite. I have two amps & two cheapish guitars.. which I think is excessive: ideally one amp, I put it in grinning-chap-clip-tone setting & that's it. Got my sound. So simple an expectation... but so impossible to achieve. So the last thing I am is some obsessive searching for 'the perfect tone' as I know countless guys do. I'm simply searching for a 'useable' tone; a deliberately very broad scope/ intentionally/ to aim at with my dart/ the whole damn dartboard (not the bullseye-tone obsessives & pros strive for).. surely I can at least hit the darboard, once? nope.. my dart blitheringly lands completely off the dartboard, each, & every time.

The thing is, I've found -nothing- that works for me. Amps I mean. In 32 years. I once played a SF Champ dimed in 1988 (I thought it wasn't meant to be turned up, because it went "all distorty" but I needed the volume [a school band] so played away & I sort of "felt" something good was happening/ something sounded very good.. but I had no idea it wasn't not meant to be played at volume 8.5). Once only have I played an amp/ that amp, dimed, approximating the grinning-chap-clip's tone, in overdriven/ real distortion mode that was a desirable-sound-for-me, once, 32 years ago. I'm nearly 50 now.

Every pedal Ive tried.. the sustain dies away, the sound's 'manufactured' (not 5% of my clip's tone). Every distortion pedal, od pedal, via every amp Ive tried. Not playable. Not fun. Two dimensional & dull. No distortion pedals for me. So I try the low watt 5F1 route (I built, & sold for decent money): I can dime the amp occasionally, but its nothing to write home about, the notes don't sustain well, its ott-farty-bassy too.. nothing akin to the sustainy overtoney SF champ back in 1988. So I try this amp, that amp, & here I am. Ive considered a SF Champ of course, but I need an attenuator & if I cant make them work well if at all, unfathomably, this route is another Catch22.

Anyway I'm / we're conflating threads a bit. I'll do the A500k volume pot & -hopefully- (tho with my luck it'll do the very same as the old B500k did) I'll have a useable guitar volume I can turn to half, & it'll simply be ~approximately~ half the volume. That surely aint too much of an expectation. Surely (but I have no confidence it'll work!).

Once I get this simply 'overdriven' tone, nothing excessive needed, simply just as my clip/ something akin to this level of distortion... then.. the playing starts, the ideas come, the quest is over, finally. Then I just forget the gear, because I simply have the tool I have been striving for to create good music........ & Im away.

thx for reading- SC

[Chuck H]

Well, just a heads up. The audio pot may not give you "half volume" at half way up, as it were. It depends on the signal chain and how much headroom it has. What the audio pot will do is alter gain. This is different from altering volume. When you are playing perfectly clean the audio pot would, ideally, reduce volume to a rough approximation of "half". In any case it will be much better than your linear pot.

The volume pot circuit is wired as a voltage divider. Suppose you turn down to 5 on your guitars volume control:

linear pot: 1/1 division. The signal from the guitar is cut in half. This does not mean half volume though as volume perception is not a linear thing for the human ear.

audio pot: Alpha - roughly 8/1 division. The signal from the guitar is cut to about 1/8th. I'm sure you'll notice a difference between the two pots.

[Sea Chief]

Well, just a heads up. The audio pot may not give you "half volume" at half way up, as it were. It depends on the signal chain and how much headroom it has. What the audio pot will do is alter gain. This is different from altering volume. When you are playing perfectly clean the audio pot would, ideally, reduce volume to a rough approximation of "half". In any case it will be much better than your linear pot.

The volume pot circuit is wired as a voltage divider. Suppose you turn down to 5 on your guitars volume control:

linear pot: 1/1 division. The signal from the guitar is cut in half. This does not mean half volume though as volume perception is not a linear thing for the human ear.

audio pot: Alpha - roughly 8/1 division. The signal from the guitar is cut to about 1/8th. I'm sure you'll notice a difference between the two pots.

Hi Chuck,

I'm not understanding what gain is, never have.. but for now it doesn't matter let's say (its week 2 guitar amp school [or guitar school- I've no idea what gain is or where it lives]..& I've never been able to complete week 1!): if I have a volume & an MV, to then consider a 3rd aspect 'gain'.. I cannot cope/ understand.

But: just bc I don't understand it, doesn't mean though, that I'm incapable of playing it, as good as smiling-joe in my clip, incapable therefore in theory of achieving exactly what he achieves in the clip. Especially if I have the same amp (& a similar gtr too). Even if I might not understand gain.. I might in theory be the best player of it/ with it you've ever heard. I think it has something to do with distortion.. but then if distortion is a '4th dimension' to me, I so do not know my ass from my elbow I'm just overwhelmed with fug. Signal.. I think I understand: humbuckers honk out more of it vs singles. But as to signal within the amp.. nope sorry, I'm so utterly lost again (& now that's like into a '5th dimension' to me!).

Yup.. I do roughly understand the 'perception' of 'half volume' etc though. Woohoo! For the intent of the test though with the volume pot, ~very approximately half~ is waaaaay more than adequate: it'd be an unmitigated triumph tbh.

Again I have my dart, & my only expectation is to hit the 'volume pot' dartboard. I set expectations VERY low to hopefully A) achieve something, & B) to deliberately show that I'm not obsessed with minutiae/ obsessive xyz.. but in fact the total opposite.

Im absolutelly sure I'll notice a difference between the pots then. I'm 1st trying to get a plan together before I turn on the solder iron, so as not to ruin this new tip by tmrw afternoon 1st!

thanks- SC

[pdf64]

Dunno if this will help, but...
The vol control on your guitar, drive and vol controls on a distortion pedal that might be in line, the channel vol controls on your amps, and master vols where fitted, are all in reality gain controls.
Anything that controls the full bandwidth signal level is a gain control.
Whereas frequency selective gain controls are tone controls.
The particular location of each gain control in the signal path will affect whether, given suitable settings of the other gain controls, they can adjust the sound pressure level in the room, or the overdrive / distortion / clipping of the signal.

[Dave H]

I'm not understanding what gain is, never have.. but for now it doesn't matter let's say (its week 2 guitar amp school [or guitar school- I've no idea what gain is or where it lives]..& I've never been able to complete week 1!): if I have a volume & an MV, to then consider a 3rd aspect 'gain'.. I cannot cope/ understand.

In electronics 'gain' is the amount by which an amplifier increases the signal voltage. If its input voltage is 1V and its output voltage is 2V then it has doubled the signal voltage and we say it has a gain of 2. If it's 1V in and 10V out then its gain is 10 etc. Guitarists on the other hand tend to equate 'gain' with distortion because increasing the gain above a certain point makes the amp distort and the more you increase the gain after that the more the distortion increases.

The two volume controls on your amp are both gain controls but working on different sections of the amp. The input volume controls the gain of the pre-amp and the output (master) volume controls the gain of the power amp.

You want power amp distortion so set guitar vol on 10, master on 10 then increase the input vol until it sounds like your clip. It will be LOUD but you should be able to set it up before the cops arrive, a couple of strums should do it. Now without touching any volume controls fit the attenuator and adjust it to set the required volume in the room. The distortion level shouldn't change. But it's like the Irish man said when asked for directions. “If you want to get to Dublin sir then I wouldn't start from here” i.e. If all you need is 1W for playing in the bedroom a 15W amp may not be the best place to start.

Clear as mud eh?

[Helmholtz]

Gain just means amplification factor. But it may take getting used to gains below 1. E.g. a volume pot varies gain between 0 and 1 (corresponding to 100%), as it can only attenuate.
The gains of succeeding stages multiply.

[Sea Chief]

Dunno if this will help, but...
The vol control on your guitar, drive and vol controls on a distortion pedal that might be in line, the channel vol controls on your amps, and master vols where fitted, are all in reality gain controls.
Anything that controls the full bandwidth signal level is a gain control.
Whereas frequency selective gain controls are tone controls.
The particular location of each gain control in the signal path will affect whether, given suitable settings of the other gain controls, they can adjust the sound pressure level in the room, or the overdrive / distortion / clipping of the signal.

Hi pdf.. so in reality if they're all gain controls, why aren't they all called 'gain' then? why all this mixmatch of vol, master vol, level, gain, signal level, distortion, overdrive. It implies each are different. When most are -I think- exactly the same. And it does my nut in!

I can undertand bandwidth, by a process of elimination in your reply. "Full bandwidth signal level" though is asking for trouble.. I start gnashing my teeth.

I can -very roughly- understand the location sentence you put last. Up to 'location of each in the signal path' & I'm just on board.. but then on I'm so adrift on my boat each word ramps up my confusion, so by the time Ive got to 'signal' at the end.. it's like Ive just got hopelessly drunk in 10 seconds of reading it.

How on earth you guys understand this I'll never know, it comes as simple/ 2nd nature to most it seems.
--

I can though solder in my A500k pot! And progress. I resurrected a cr*p old iron to try for the job (dare not try my new tip) & it worked just so I could do some solders. And, the A500k is alot better. Both the scope of the rotation, which afaict is 'fine' now (even if halfway prolly isn't "half vol" I honestly couldnt care less). Also it seems to sound better. Cant think how tho.

So I can now turn the amp up a bit more, & turn vol down on the gtr to half say.. & well I can get into a scrap more "complexity" of tone. Only a bit. But it's progress.

The tele & strat seem on parity in output, the crappy amp preamp overdrive/ distortion whatever the heck it is, is equally as badly saturated with both gtrs! you have to dig out what little there is, by literally attacking the strings.

Appreciate the explaining chaps- SC

[Sea Chief]

Gain just means amplification factor. But it may take getting used to gains below 1. E.g. a volume pot varies gain between 0 and 1 (corresponding to 100%), as it can only attenuate.
The gains of succeeding stages multiply.

Oh jeepers I'm just not capable of deciphering any of this apart from the 1st 5 words. I am so hopeless at this- maths I'm equally as bad. As to finance.. dont ask (!!).

[Sea Chief]

In electronics 'gain' is the amount by which an amplifier increases the signal voltage. If its input voltage is 1V and its output voltage is 2V then it has doubled the signal voltage and we say it has a gain of 2. If it's 1V in and 10V out then its gain is 10 etc. Guitarists on the other hand tend to equate 'gain' with distortion because increasing the gain above a certain point makes the amp distort and the more you increase the gain after that the more the distortion increases.

The two volume controls on your amp are both gain controls but working on different sections of the amp. The input volume controls the gain of the pre-amp and the output (master) volume controls the gain of the power amp.

You want power amp distortion so set guitar vol on 10, master on 10 then increase the input vol until it sounds like your clip. It will be LOUD but you should be able to set it up before the cops arrive, a couple of strums should do it. Now without touching any volume controls fit the attenuator and adjust it to set the required volume in the room. The distortion level shouldn't change. But it's like the Irish man said when asked for directions. “If you want to get to Dublin sir then I wouldn't start from here” i.e. If all you need is 1W for playing in the bedroom a 15W amp may not be the best place to start.

Clear as mud eh?

Ive never thought of using the amp starting with the MV on 10, & turning the other volume up from 0. Master vol gives the impression that this is the daddy one you turn up to make it all get louder. I do understand the vol is something to do with the preamp volume, the MV is to do with the power amp volume.

I honestly can't turn it up like you suggest. I have awful n'bors it'll be handing them a call to environmemtal health golden ticket on a plate for them.

All I can do is assume the amp -is capable- of some similarity in tone as smiley-joe's, should I be lucky enough to turn it up. It should be capable & has no reason not to be. And add the attenuator, simply with both amp volumes dimed, & turn down the attenuator. I do this, I attack the strings. But it sounds the same as my crappy preamp distortion. Pretty much. Nothing in any way shape or form even remotely akin to smiling-todd's sound Dave H.

From what I thought, & what you here give the impression is possible, I had thought I should simply be able to hear maybe 75% or therabouts let's say (I aim expectantly low'ish) of smiley-riley's tone.. but at a far far reduced volume. I get the reduced volume aspect ok (suggesting the attenuator's working).. but only this. None, well lets say 5% at best, of smiley's tone has got through. A tele too, so a useful choice of gtr he uses for added comparison.

--

I will continue on & rebuild the attenuator as a capacitor type tho, as I bought the extra bits, but it's probably not too sensible to continue/ a bit of a dead-end road I'm stuck down it seems.

Great help tho- much oblidged to all. SC

[Sea Chief]

Could someone just help me out- I had great success with the Alpha A500k (damn good quality now too- upped I think, mfr in korea) for the vol knob.

Is it the same for the tone pot? again I have a mini cheapo in, similar to vol as most of knob rotation similar then whole tone range in last 1/2 rotation this time (last 1/8th of a rotation in the vol pot).

thanks SC