Vol knob basics.

[Fluoroscope 5000]

The influence of cable capacitance on PU exists but is not crucial.
Cable capacitance can be measured with a C meter that has almost every dmm.
The difference in capacitance (per length meter) is the best estimate.

http://www.1728.org/resfreq.htm
Resonant frequency calculator

https://www.syscompdesign.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/guitar-pickups.pdf
Measuring impedance and frequency response of guitar pickups

I known all that, and the resistance load and pickup impedance influence where the peak will actually fall, but you recommended a total cable C that would put the peak of the TS Tele pickups in the most harsh 3-3.5kHz range (see the updated F-M curve). It's the worst possible place for the peak to be. It creates the most ear-fatigue without the articulation and sparkle of a peak above 4kHz. I know the ear should be the final judge, but with how your treble bleed network would null the peak and your cable C suggestion, you appear to be batting 0 for 2 (if you get the baseball analogy). I don't see how you are helping the OP get what he wants from his pickups...and I'll leave it at that.

[vintagekiki]

Everyone has the right to their opinion.
The sound is in the listener's ear, the sound is not in sims.
Do not to make myths of cable capacitance, vk offered C box.
Do not believe, check so let's talk.

[Chuck H]

Well... Being as the self capacitance of a pickup is fairly predictable at 100pf to 200pf per coil +/- and a six meter guitar cable (average, special low capacitance types not withstanding) will have a capacitance of about 600pf I would say that the cable is just as significant as the pickup. If not more so. Changing pickups, even at extreme ends of offerings probably won't change the frequency of the resonant peak as much as switching between a 10 foot cable and a 20 foot cable.

People are very picky about resonant peaks and what works for one player can be very different from another player. The no change volume circuit proposed absolutely does null the resonant peak. Sort of like using a 75k or 100k volume pot because of how it's wired (depending on whether a 250k or 500k volume pot is used). Players get finicky about whether to use a 250k or 500k volume pot. And some even use 1M volume pots. But no one I know of has ever touted the benefits of a volume pot resistance value lower than 250k. Certainly not 100k. Which is the effect your circuit has on the guitars tone even with the volume knob full up. It's sort of like backing off your guitar volume knob to about 8.5 and leaving it there (I can feel other players cringing). I don't need to try it. I can see what it does relative to what I already know about tone and what "I" like.

I'm outy

[Sea Chief]

Ok I am going to jump in here, & with it attempt a mediation-of-sorts.

I appreciate both perspectives, using your ears & using graphs. But what is the likely audible outcome from this difference in resonant peaks? I was under the vague impression that the 'peak' is the only area that rises up & therefore provides the only place most noticeably audible to compare. Uisng it seeming only of use to be the 'tool' from one citeria to another (as Flour5000's clip tended to do).. & I'm still trying to establish why this might be you see. It remains a bit of a mystery-camel-hump. It might have been explained but it still doesn't click, apologies.

Is my resonant boom in my hifi speakers, effectively giving me tangible evidence of this hump-? the fact that A) both seem to happen 'very approximately' twds the middle area of proceedings both on graph & ~upper midrange my ears tell me, & B) the brief period it happens seems maybe to coincide with the 'brief' hump on the graph. I know the room interaction plays a significant part in my hearing of the speaker's boom thing.. so I dont know if the graph data then is n/a.

So, is there any correlation between these two 'resonant' things? or am I barking up totally the wrong tree with my hif speaker comparison.

Chuck when you say people are picky about resonant peaks, are you are talking about a brief, recurring episode of sound ascociaterd with this peak? (seems more proof there may be a connection to my hifi thing).. or is this peak more of a general reflection of the -whole- package?


Thanks for the input chaps- will take a pic o' me pots today, then you can at least collectively laugh at the dog's breakfast it'll likely be. SC

[Chuck H]

Chuck when you say people are picky about resonant peaks, are you are talking about a brief, recurring episode of sound ascociaterd with this peak? (seems more proof there may be a connection to my hifi thing).. or is this peak more of a general reflection of the -whole- package?

More of a general reflection of the whole package. The peak as it is visible in the graphs isn't instantaneous, it's a static reflection of the EQ curve. Imagine it like a guitar amp tone knob. If you turn up the treble then how does that affect the overall sound of the amp? Ok, now imagine if you could turn up the treble, but only in a narrow band and leave the higher treble down. Resonant characteristics, small and large are the timbre that gives flutes, reed instruments, electric guitars and the human voice their individual and special zing.

[Sea Chief]

Chuck H I wish I could understand this, I really do. Your last sentence is part of what gives my life energy. But when you ask me to imagine only a section, of the treble, which I have only associated with the top end.. Im lost again. I just can't imagine what you suggest.

Anyway, maybe it will come.. I hope so. But it'll take me a year poring over these replies countless times, but I will keep trying.

In the meantime my pots pic. There is a 680 pf cap (only thing i had to hand/ flung on really) on the bigger new vol pot, its just a bit hidden in the dark background. So its between the upper lug & middle lug as orientated in the photo. Both pots are 500k log.

Maybe when Flour500 was talking about a cap 'on the pickup' I wonder if he means on the ends of their leads.. I E on the actual pots? This has only just occured to me, as I just cannot think how a cap can be physically put onto a pickup.. unless excavating the cavity.

Thanks, SC

[vintagekiki]

I just cannot think how a cap can be physically put onto a pickup.. unless excavating the cavity.

Use a 50V radial film or ceramic caps, 0.25W resistors, and compact parts packing.

[Fluoroscope 5000]

To use a different tone knob cap for each pickup you'd have to wire each cap from the selector switch lug for each pickup to the tone knob input, and then wire the tone knob output to ground.. Maybe just leave that for another time when you better grasp the wiring.

From those pictures, it looks like the white pickup lead might ground out to the switch case. I'd resolder that so it's not sticking out.

The tone knob also looks wired wrong. That could be the too dark tone issue. It looks like you need to rewire the tone cap from the middle tone pot lug to its casing on top, and rewire the yellow cloth wire (that was attached to the cap) from the top/outer lug to the top/outer lug of the volume pot (or to the middle lug for 50's wiring). Then, ground the bottom/outer lug of the volume pot to its casing.

[Chuck H]

I can't really see what's happening with one end of the tone capacitor. The end with the gold, cloth braid lead on it. Where is that going?

And I can't see any of the solder connections for the lower volume pot lug.

[Chuck H]

Also...

I do find an addition on lugs 1& 2.. a 680pf silva mica cap, plus resistors in series 100k & another(?) across the same lugs 1&2.

I read this as the resistors are in series with the capacitor. I can see by the photo that just the resistors are in series, but are parallel to the capacitor. You wrote out the arrangement clear enough, but it's an understandable miscommunication considering. But it's also a very important distinction. With the resistors parallel to the cap they are also parallel to the volume pot at all frequencies. This makes your new "audio taper" pot act much more like a linear taper pot. If you want even more of a true audio taper. More gradual at the low end of the adjustment, you could change that circuit to something else. We can discuss the options if you're interested in that.

[vintagekiki]

Treble cap 473, instead on hot pot pin (blue wire on volume pot), is soldered to gnd pot pin.

[Fluoroscope 5000]

Treble cap 473, instead on hot pot pin (blue wire on volume pot), is soldered to gnd pot pin.

Yeah, that's what essentially looks like the problem, and why I suggested how to rewire it. The other way that will sound virtually the same would be to wire the cap across the middle and bottom lugs, wire the bottom lug to ground, and rewire the yellow cloth wire to the top lug of both pots.

I wouldn't worry about the treble bleed unless your find it's not to your liking. They work differently depending on your cable capacitance. Again, a very low C cable will keep the tone balanced as the volume knob is turned down.

[Chuck H]

Treble cap 473, instead on hot pot pin (blue wire on volume pot), is soldered to gnd pot pin.

Yes, it seems the tone circuit is wired backwards compared to typical. But why nit pick??? Are these not equivalent circuits?

The schematic you posted looks to be inaccurate relative to how the guitar is actually wired. In fact you have three capacitors there.?. Not sure what you're seeing. Please see the diagrams below.

[Helmholtz]

100k+47k from vol hot to wiper spoils the taper.

To get an idea of the "twang potential" of the guitar, I would disconnect the tone pot as a trial.

[Chuck H]

100k+47k from vol hot to wiper spoils the taper.

To get an idea of the "twang potential" of the guitar, I would disconnect the tone pot as a trial.

Yes! I mentioned this in post #85 above. I know what I'll be suggesting but I'll wait for Sea Chief to decide if that's an issue. Imagine how bad it must have been with this circuit and a linear taper pot! Wow. Whoever built that Tele really considered the electronics poorly.