Vol knob basics.

[Chuck H]

I realized I got the response of higher value R in the series wired treble bleed backward, so I deleted that portion of my suggestion. I agree that 220pF to 440pF is better than 680pF, but ~220k R with the 220pF C for the parallel treble bleed shows the most linear response using the Guitarfreak database app with the output being down ~12dB when the Volume knob is at 5. Higher R only reduces the output below the peak more, and lower R increases it, and there is more treble loss if the cable C b4 the first preamp is too high. I don't know all the details, but think it has to do with the C value on the bleed vs the C of the cable in relation to the pickup impedance with the added R as the volume is turned down, as well as the impedance and "Miller" C of whatever input the guitar is plugged into. Even going from a typical ~360pF 12' store brand cable to a ~200pF cable could make a substantial difference in the linearity so the C value on the bleed would also be less critical. Shorter low C cables were the norm for a reason b4 the long coil cables became popular in the late '60s.

Well the previous arrangement was a pair of resistors in series, then parallel to the capacitor for an actual circuit arrangement of 147k parallel to a 680p capacitor. A 220k resistor is better than 147k, but not better enough. What I'm aiming for is something that will give Sea Chief what he wants. There IS no treble bleed circuit at this time that offers a proper audio taper and tonal preservation. The best you can do is fine tune. There has been no mention of just where Sea Chief would like to have the most accurate result in the adjustment. Some players spend all their time between six and ten for subtle shades of the grit and overdive and others (like me) mostly use the volume to clean up and are using it from one to four. I'm sure Guitarfreak is a great resource but I'll stand by my suggestion on the premise that there really is no single answer for every player.

[Sea Chief]

Well the previous arrangement was a pair of resistors in series, then parallel to the capacitor for an actual circuit arrangement of 147k parallel to a 680p capacitor. A 220k resistor is better than 147k, but not better enough. What I'm aiming for is something that will give Sea Chief what he wants. There IS no treble bleed circuit at this time that offers a proper audio taper and tonal preservation. The best you can do is fine tune. There has been no mention of just where Sea Chief would like to have the most accurate result in the adjustment. Some players spend all their time between six and ten for subtle shades of the grit and overdive and others (like me) mostly use the volume to clean up and are using it from one to four. I'm sure Guitarfreak is a great resource but I'll stand by my suggestion on the premise that there really is no single answer for every player.

Hi Chuck,

I'm just not able to answer the question of how I prefer xyz! I never knew there was anyone who only used the guitar's vol at 1-4.. I didn't/ don't quite understand how this is even tenable (purely because I think, I've never had an amp capable of delivering me anything useable tonewise, if I were to set the volume so low; I can only assume you migt have some monster expensive amp that has so many shades of tone available, you have the luxury of being able to 'choose' where you set your vol knob: I don't really, so mostly it's vol set to max, with the tone knob too: mostly but not always).

If I had an amp, or rather had a situation whereby I could utilise the amp I have in it's 'driven' state, I could perhaps start to be able to go about considering how I might like things optimally. But it's like I have a ferrari, I'm asked what tyres I'd like to have on/ a reasonable Q, but because I can only & have only ever been able to drive it with the handbrake on.. I have no conception of what different tyres would equate to. Nor, would they make any difference one tyre to the next, from my driving pov, because I have to have the handbrake on.

But I can only guess as to a situation whereby the amp might facilitate such a situation, of guitar vol knob 'various' useages from your 3 to someone's using it at 7.. I have only ever really known it only sounds decent both knobs maxed, because I can only think, my amp is never able to be producing the correct "distortion situation". I don't know. It all remains a mystery.

Thanks SC

[Chuck H]

Well I don't ONLY use my volume from 1-4 but that's my critical zone for cleaning up depending on how much gain I'm using. So that's where "I" need a preferred tonal character for "that" sound. I also use 5-7 for neck pickup tones sometimes and, of course, full up. It's different for everyone. Some players don't use high gain and just want to have the guitar sound the same, but quieter at a certain volume/knob setting. Some just want subtle shades of distortion and use mostly the 6-10 range. The current treble bleed circuit options really only allow for certain ideals and absolutely do not work as a perfect solution to the tone changes with volume setting at all points on the knob. Plus the complication of treble bleed circuits altering the volume adjustment taper. Which is ok for some but not everyone. Any player using a treble bleed circuit needs to consider these things and prioritize the available options because you simply can't have it all.

And I don't have an expensive amp, per se'. I have a purpose built amp that does exactly what I want it to for how I use it and play. Or maybe I play it exactly how it works. Both things are happening at the same time I'm sure. But my amp does have great cranked up distortion, lots of it and it also cleans up gracefully at low guitar volume settings.

And my tones aren't always ideal. My "guitar turned down" clean tone from a higher gain setting is NOT as good as if I turn the guitar up full and then set the amp for a clean tone. That's just the compromises that come with this type of playing.

[Sea Chief]

Chuck H do I have a treble bleed situation-? I can't recall if this was the 680pf cap addition, or, whether it had a cap there before (in which case it surely cannot have been a treble bleed capacitor, if that is a term).

What I find now, is it acts like a 'normal' guitar again. IE both pots seem to have useable tapers, nothing sudden/ no bunching up situation. But normal, so far as I can ascertain (yet another mystery to me), is that the treble diminishes as you turn the vol down: in which case, I cannot for the life of me understand how anyone can use a guitar with the volume knob at anything other than max --unless-- it has, again it seems to me, some form of treble bleed situation to compensate as you turn the knob down. But it seems no guitars have this simply as standard. So how on earth are people doing all this 'turn the guitar vol down' thing?? (unless via a modified guitar with a treble bleed thing/ addition). I just do not ever understand it.

The only scenario I can conceivably consider, is that sort of naturally (I havent checked it out to see if true) you might play the strings closer to the bridge as you turn down the gtr vol, to compensate in a sort of 'natural way' for the treble loss. Ive yet to see if this idea holds weight: take me 6 months of clip after clip to form a conclusion if it's true. But I bet simply, you, as an eg of someone (this I cannot possibly understand too) who actually chooses to play at volume 1-4. I have never known anyone to do this, I never knew anyone did this, & I dont understand how anyone -can- do this culminating in any form of useable sound [unless they have a modified guitar, 1st].

You paint the picture of all this 'vol turn down' thing, as 'normal' like everyone who has an electric guitar does this, or rather anyone who has a standard unmodified electric guitar does it, but, it is not normal. It is simply not possible to get a tone sapped of significant ammounts of treble (especially at volume 1?!) using the vol knob so low. Even @ 8 you lose the very tone you've spent ages dialing into the amp, in one second/ it's totally ruined (therefore it doesn't make -an iota- of sense to me why anyone would choose to do this) so you innevitable turn the vol up to max, in order to get the amps tone back again. I just don't get it. I dont think I am ever meant to understand it. SC

[Chuck H]

do I have a treble bleed situation-? I can't recall if this was the 680pf cap addition, or, whether it had a cap there before (in which case it surely cannot have been a treble bleed capacitor, if that is a term).

The 147k parallel to the 680p in your original wiring was absolutely a "treble bleed" circuit. The trouble with this circuit is that it very badly detriments the audio taper of even a proper volume pot. As I mentioned, some players just want different shades of distortion/clipping. For these players guitar volume settings from 6-10 do not change the actual volume level, it only changes the clipping level and harmonic/sustain attributes.

What I find now, is it acts like a 'normal' guitar again. IE both pots seem to have useable tapers, nothing sudden/ no bunching up situation. But normal, so far as I can ascertain (yet another mystery to me), is that the treble diminishes as you turn the vol down: in which case, I cannot for the life of me understand how anyone can use a guitar with the volume knob at anything other than max --unless-- it has, again it seems to me, some form of treble bleed situation to compensate as you turn the knob down. But it seems no guitars have this simply as standard.

Good that the tapers are acceptable now. Though you did mention that the volume knob seems bunched up with most of the action between 5-10. So there may be room for adjustment there and with that there may be a way to get a little more even treble at the different volume settings. I did try to explain this above, but there is no current "treble bleed" circuit available that preserves a proper audio taper AND keeps an even level of treble in the guitars signal. Which is why these things need to be fine tuned to player and guitar specific preferences. ie: What do you want your gain level to be with volume knob adjustment while maintaining a specific amount of treble in the signal and where do you want the guitar volume setting to be when that happens? I can see the vein throbbing on your temple as I write this. But that's really what it comes down to. Different players have different ideals and, while you you can't have everything, you can have this ONE thing. Is it a gain level or a volume level? How much room for error do you need on the volume pot, etc.?. Famous players have guitar techs that understand what the player is asking for AND what the circuits are capable of. This is the "guitar volume control" player stuff that you are comparing to. And every player is different!!! If I could watch you play for twenty minutes I'd have a much better bead on what to do for your tapers and "treble bleed" circuit. But I can't. So we'll be doing this the hard way and just make educated guesses until something sticks to the wall.

So how on earth are people doing all this 'turn the guitar vol down' thing?? (unless via a modified guitar with a treble bleed thing/ addition). I just do not ever understand it.

See above.

But I bet simply, you, as an eg of someone (this I cannot possibly understand too) who actually chooses to play at volume 1-4. I have never known anyone to do this, I never knew anyone did this, & I dont understand how anyone -can- do this culminating in any form of useable sound [unless they have a modified guitar, 1st].

as I mentioned, I use many volume settings. 10 being the most important.

You paint the picture of all this 'vol turn down' thing, as 'normal' like everyone who has an electric guitar does this, or rather anyone who has a standard unmodified electric guitar does it, but, it is not normal. It is simply not possible to get a tone sapped of significant ammounts of treble (especially at volume 1?!) using the vol knob so low. Even @ 8 you lose the very tone you've spent ages dialing into the amp, in one second/ it's totally ruined (therefore it doesn't make -an iota- of sense to me why anyone would choose to do this) so you innevitable turn the vol up to max, in order to get the amps tone back again. I just don't get it. I dont think I am ever meant to understand it. SC

Not everyone does this. Most pro players do. BUT!... The also have guitar tech's to align things for them. So if they want a certain response from the guitar at a certain setting it can be made to happen. But these guitarists are also made aware that that having the response they want at several settings is not possible. They are musicians. They use the tools they have and they have more than you do (for now) and they are made aware of these limitations and prioritize and make music anyway (because that's what musicians do!).

There are some options. They're not ideal, but they do serve for most players with the understanding and patience to either accept or understand them.

[Sea Chief]

See above.

But I bet simply, you, as an eg of someone (this I cannot possibly understand too) who actually chooses to play at volume 1-4. I have never known anyone to do this, I never knew anyone did this, & I dont understand how anyone -can- do this culminating in any form of useable sound [unless they have a modified guitar, 1st].

as I mentioned, I use many volume settings. 10 being the most important.

You paint the picture of all this 'vol turn down' thing, as 'normal' like everyone who has an electric guitar does this, or rather anyone who has a standard unmodified electric guitar does it, but, it is not normal. It is simply not possible to get a tone sapped of significant ammounts of treble (especially at volume 1?!) using the vol knob so low. Even @ 8 you lose the very tone you've spent ages dialing into the amp, in one second/ it's totally ruined (therefore it doesn't make -an iota- of sense to me why anyone would choose to do this) so you innevitable turn the vol up to max, in order to get the amps tone back again. I just don't get it. I dont think I am ever meant to understand it. SC

Not everyone does this. Most pro players do. BUT!... The also have guitar tech's to align things for them. So if they want a certain response from the guitar at a certain setting it can be made to happen. But these guitarists are also made aware that that having the response they want at several settings is not possible. They are musicians. They use the tools they have and they have more than you do (for now) and they are made aware of these limitations and prioritize and make music anyway (because that's what musicians do!).

There are some options. They're not ideal, but they do serve for most players with the understanding and patience to either accept or understand them.

But do the 'pro players' then, use this 'vol turn down thing' --with-- a treble bleed situation addition? if the answer is 'yes, always/ it can only be achieved with a modified guitar or you lose so much treble it isn't a viable thing to do'.. then I understand how it might be conceivable -I- could achieve this too. If on the otherhand the answer is 'no, you can do this with an unmodified guitar too'.. then I just cannot deal with this. I just have to give up as I am totally defeated.

You see I just cannot understand how it is possible to use a guitar (in any way between vol 1-8 instead of just put at 10).. if.. there is such a detrimental effect on the treble. Furthermore, if as it seems to me the treble dissapearance increaces the more you turn the vol down, then a figure of 1-4 giving very little treble at all, is completely & fundamentally useless: so how you, who is helpfully trying to guide me here, would actually -choose- a range of 1-4 is 1000% incomprehensible to me. But you mention it like its a 'normal' thing to be doing. It is utterly baffling.

Unless (& this I can only surmise is the only option as to how, to me) the guitar is modified 1st to compensate for this treble dissapearance.

But so far as I can establish, the 'turn the vol down' thing (I don't know even what is happening.. I mean, where does the distortion 'go'??) happens on 'off the shelf' electric guitars too (but I don't know; this is currently what I'm trying to establish).

So I'm totally stuck as to what guitar wiring/ cap/ configuration has to be in place (if this is indeed the case) to be able to do it, that is, to be able to do it with a useable even tone (IE not a muffled-bass-guitar-like-totally-useless-tone akin to one you get if you were to roll the tone right down with the vol up max: this is not a desired tone, by anybody, it is never heard on any recordings, it just sounds terrible like being fully submersed underwater: I refuse to believe anybody -chooses- to use a guitar with this tone & with 1000% certainty I can say I've never, once, in my 1500Lp's, heard one part of one track, with a guitar sounding like this).

Thanks, SC

[nosaj]

[/QUOTE]But so far as I can establish, the 'turn the vol down' thing (I don't know even what is happening.. I mean, where does the distortion 'go'??) happens on 'off the shelf' electric guitars too (but I don't know; this is currently what I'm trying to establish).

So I'm totally stuck as to what guitar wiring/ cap/ configuration has to be in place (if this is indeed the case) to be able to do it, that is, to be able to do it with a useable even tone (IE not a muffled-bass-guitar-like-totally-useless-tone akin to one you get if you were to roll the tone right down with the vol up max: this is not a desired tone, by anybody, it is never heard on any recordings, it just sounds terrible like being fully submersed underwater: I refuse to believe anybody -chooses- to use a guitar with this tone & with 1000% certainty I can say I've never, once, in my 1500Lp's, heard one part of one track, with a guitar sounding like this).

Thanks, SC[/QUOTE]

Maybe you should spend some quality time with a guitar tech to get some actual hands on experience with this.
I find being shown greatly outweighs what words on a screen can convey to me.
nosaj

[Chuck H]

I did some editing above to make the posts more clear. I didn't edit nosaj's post because I don't presume to edit the posts of other moderators, but I think the interactions are clearer now. So...

SC, what you're not getting is that it's entirely possible to have a gain level making distortion and then use the guitar volume control as a gain control to turn down the distortion. It's hard enough for you to understand (apparently) and so it will be impossible for me to explain, but I'll try.

"Where does the distortion go?" This is simple. A clipped signal is called that because the upper and lower peaks of the signal wave form are clipped off. By reducing gain you can reduce the level of clipping. Even to the point that the signal peaks are the same but there is no longer sufficient signal to be clipped off.

This next piece of information is a bit more tricky, but I'll try. Because of the particular circuit behaviors of pickups and guitar volume controls the guitars signal loses brightness at the "resonant peak" as the guitar volume is reduced from 10 - 3ish/4ish. After that a resonant peak starts to rise again, but at a higher frequency. This can be useful for players that use high gain and clean up with the guitar volume because the resonant peak at 10 will assert at, say, 2.5kHz where it makes lots of cool feedbacky harmonics, but then the resonant peak with the guitar volume at 1.5 may be more like 6kHz. Which is a preferable peak frequency for a clean tone. Less brash and in your face. To exploit this you have to be using enough gain that the guitar signal with the volume at 2/3 is sufficient to clip in the signal chain. Now...

If your signal chain is such that it will not clip until the guitar volume is at, say, 5 or more then your guitars signal has no useful resonant peak and your "volume turned down" clean tone will sound muffled and crappy. Unless...

You can use a "treble bleed" circuit that is fine tuned to give the guitar signal the right amount of brightness with the volume set to 5 so that your clean tone doesn't sound muffled. This has the unwanted side effect of making the guitar TOO bright when the volume is set to 1.5. So any "treble bleed" circuit needs to be fine tuned to a players particular needs. A player that uses gain levels such that the guitar signal clips the signal chain at volume 2 would not be happy with a "treble bleed" circuit that gives the right amount of treble with the volume knob at 5 because now THAT players clean tone would have too much treble when the guitar is turned down to 1.5.

I know none of this is that clear. It's layman's terms explaining circuit behaviors and no doubt hard to absorb. I like nosaj's suggestion that you consult with a guitar tech for some hands on demonstration. For you I think watching how it works is the only way to understand something about why it does.

But I'll post an example anyway. Joe Satriani uses a guitar that has a "treble bleed" circuit on the volume control that allows him to have subtle shades of distortion levels at higher volume knob settings. BUT he also has the treble bleed circuit on a switch so that it may be removed from his guitar circuit. He does this so that he can turn his guitar down to 1 without it being too bright. Now, with his guitar volume set very low and the treble bleed disengaged he gets the higher frequency resonant peak that's better for cleaner tones. This "treble bleed on a switch" circuit works for Joe because he uses an obscene amount of gain. Watch this video. He uses his volume control A LOT (though mostly off camera).

[Dave H]

I cannot for the life of me understand how anyone can use a guitar with the volume knob at anything other than max --unless-- it has, again it seems to me, some form of treble bleed situation to compensate as you turn the knob down. But it seems no guitars have this simply as standard.

I had a look and I found this one. The Fender American Pro Telecaster has a treble bleed as standard. I haven't tried this particular circuit myself. I use 330k in parallel with 470p which works well enough for me but I'm not a perfectionist. At home I have vol and tone on 5, with the band it's 8 to 10.

[Chuck H]

Thank you Dave. In fact I'm pretty sure some Fender guitars were sold with a simple 1n cap on the volume control as a treble bleed circuit as far back as the early 60's?

If you read the thread then you know that SC is also trying to solve for the taper of the volume pot as it was the 147k parallel resistance. So I'm afraid the above circuit is off the table as it renders even an audio taper pot much closer to a linear taper. Ergo my consideration of a much larger parallel resistance as a sort of compromise. Right now he has it wired with a sort of Kinmen type circuit that uses a series resistor and capacitor. But it's under performing as far as treble preservation on the top end of the adjustment. Mu current suggestion is 510k/330p to 470p in parallel circuit.

[Chuck H]

Ok... If you want to see a player REALLY using the volume control there's THIS guy. Glen Kuykendall is the patron saint of Trainwreck amp clips. These amps are notorious for being "controllable from the guitar volume". And Glen uses his volume control A LOT. He's so adept at it and you might even miss it on occasion. But this is a good demonstration of what controlling an amp with the guitar volume control means. I chose this clip because he's using a strat, so, similar gain (if not slightly less) to your tele. It might be worth mentioning that he's playing AT AMP VOLUME. So he has all the cool acoustic feedback things happening that you say you can't get because of grumpy neighbors Still, this is what it is to use the guitar to control the gain of the amp.

[nosaj]

OH NO you've done it now Chuck!

nosaj