Cream "Gibson" Color Survey?

[JGundry]

Given that few luthiers and pickup makers are pro photographers, would a simpler approach suffice?

For instance, always photograph the items of interest with a Kodak 18% gray card as the background? This (being a known color) would allow much of the variation to be calibrated out.

I suppose one could also take a picture of the traditional Kodak color patch card (I forget the name of that card, but I have one somewhere).

That would work as common reference for color correction. But again you want to make sure that every variable is controlled and repeated for each shot. If you are just taking pictures from different sources, different lighting, lenses cameras you won't get accurate color. Also you want to make sure the grey card is new. They fade and yellow over time.

[Possum]

.....

There is a color reference in those photos, we KNOW what PAF decal looks like in person, we know what nickel silver baseplates look like in person. Adjust the photos from that....
We also know those bobbins aren't red, green, or brown, purple etc., the photos aren't totally useless for viewing purposes. For color mixing sure, but as I mentioned before the only way you'll get the right mix is take the actual bobbins to the guy mixing the color, and hope they have a color viewing booth at their facility, which I kind of doubt for a plastics part manufacturer. And again you are at the mercy of the guy's physical eyeballs as well. The photos I've seen all have color chip specimens next to real '59 pickups as well, but as you point out there isn't some official color mix recipe stuffed in the Gibson archives, they used those because black pigment wasn't available.

[Joe Gwinn]

That [a 18% gray card) would work as common reference for color correction. But again you want to make sure that every variable is controlled and repeated for each shot. If you are just taking pictures from different sources, different lighting, lenses cameras you won't get accurate color.

Yes yes, but most people are not going to ever be set up to do all that. How well can one do with a good 18% gray card and perhaps a color squares card? This worked well enough in the days of silver-based color film, so it can't be useless.

Also you want to make sure the gray card is new. They fade and yellow over time.

I bet my 18% gray card is yellowed by now for sure. If only from the sweaty handler.

[JGundry]

An 18% grey card as a reference for every photo would go a long way toward getting a meaningful color and exposure reference.

Possum,

As graphical reference these photos are great. But as a color reference they are pretty much useless because the differences are subtle enough that poor or auto white balance will skew the color. Considering the PAF sticker as a reliable reference is just as bad as any other. Those decals yellow differently and on top of that you really can't color correct from a metallic ink.

The color is matched with a densitometer reading off the reference part. I just shipped a Zebra PAF for a densitometer reading to the place doing the match for Belwar and I. The place doing the color match will ask you to send them lets say 10lbs. of the plastic you are using. You send them the reference part, they take a digital reading directly from it. They calculate what is needed to create the color with your material. They make a color mix using your plastic and they mold a color chip from your plastic and color mix to confirm it and they send the color mix plastic and chip back to you with a mix ratio. That is how it is done now and it is pretty accurate although I'm sure they must have some tolerance.

Gibson probably bought Eastman Butyrate. Eastman makes a bunch of different Butyrate formulas but in reality you have to buy an enormous amount to buy direct from Eastman. The only way to economically get a smaller quantity of Butyrate is to buy it from a distributor that is already stock piling the formula you want. If the distributor is stock piling 200,000 lbs then they are stock piling it for a big customer. Gibson would have been a pretty small fish in terms of plastic needs but they could probably find a distributor that had what they needed on hand at a reasonable price but availability would be dependent on the needs of the mega customer stockpiling it. My guess is Gibson just had to deal with the reality taking whatever plastic the distributor was able to offer when the cream bobbins were run.

One other complicating factor is that I believe Butyrate needs to be molded within a year or two. If you wait too long it will take on too much moisture. When you factor that into it also Gibson probably just had to take what it could get that was plentiful with the distributor.

[Possum]

...

You're forgetting that back then butyrate was an ordinary common household plastic. It was nothing special, they wouldn't need to buy a plastics firm for common plastic. Most of my toys back then smelled like that stuff. P90 dog ear covers were made of it, rings were made of it, it actually isn't a real good material for winding coils on, cheap and available.

New fact for you. 1979, Seymour Duncan was using butyrate bobbins, wonder why Frank didn't mention that, maybe he wasn't born yet ;-) I have one sitting here.

There are plenty places that stock butyrate, it wasn't very hard to find in a google search. I still personally would stay closer to a more aged color, the swatch I've seen was fine and would maybe jibe with HIstoric rings a little better and less risk of customer complaints of color match with their Historics. Anyway good luck, sounds like another obstacle course to get what you want.....

[rudutch]

#5 from 1st batch

of course, I'm uncalibrated, unstable, and uncertified

[JGundry]

You're forgetting that back then butyrate was an ordinary common household plastic. It was nothing special, they wouldn't need to buy a plastics firm for common plastic. Most of my toys back then smelled like that stuff. P90 dog ear covers were made of it, rings were made of it, it actually isn't a real good material for winding coils on, cheap and available.

New fact for you. 1979, Seymour Duncan was using butyrate bobbins, wonder why Frank didn't mention that, maybe he wasn't born yet ;-) I have one sitting here.

There are plenty places that stock butyrate, it wasn't very hard to find in a google search. I still personally would stay closer to a more aged color, the swatch I've seen was fine and would maybe jibe with HIstoric rings a little better and less risk of customer complaints of color match with their Historics. Anyway good luck, sounds like another obstacle course to get what you want.....

Probably every bit of Butyrate in the USA came from Eastman in the 50's and it came in two basic base colors. Gibson would have had to rely upon a distributor having the base color they wanted whenever they ordered.

You are probably right about the color. You go one way and some customers are going to say they look too yellow. Go the other and some are going to say they look too pink. Two batches of colorant may be the way to go. It is cheap enough that it is probably worth it.

If you are talking about the USA, finding a distributor that stocks Butyrate in the formula you need for bobbins is not real easy. Finding a place that will sell it in small batches at a decent price is even harder. Not nearly as many choices as you would think. Maybe a different situation overseas but in the USA not real easy.

[RedHouse]

...My guess is Gibson just had to deal with the reality taking whatever plastic the distributor was able to offer when the cream bobbins were run....

Well yeah, isn't that the commonly accepted story of how the non black bobbins came to be?

Gibson ordered black, the supplier ran out and shipped them "whatever they had" and Gibson didn't care because they were covered anyway.

It's news to me that Gibson was choosing the creame color shade. Maybe I'm not paying enough attention, but then reproducing PAF's is not my life goal though, it's best left to you guys.

[David Schwab]

My guess is Gibson just had to deal with the reality taking whatever plastic the distributor was able to offer when the cream bobbins were run.

Wasn't the fact that they had cream or off white bobbins at all because they were not picky about color and took what ever color plastic they got. After all, you weren't supposed to see the bobbins anyway, and people didn't know they had zebras or double cream until they took the covers off. It was not done intentionally.

They got cream bobbins because that's what the molder was running that week.

What I always heard was that the workers would just grab bobbins from a box and wind them. So they were always very random. I'm sure the workers probably had fun too, and picked bobbins to make matches. That's something a bored factory worker would do.

To me that would indicate that Gibson never even specified a cream color. They may have wanted black, but maybe they didn't even care about that and took what ever were the common colors being used at the molder. And that probably varied.

Then I've seen clear P-90 bobbins and the clear mini hum bobbins, and they are two different plastics as well.

[Possum]

...

The clear ones were intentional and were from the early 70's. Those were the "Laid Back" series of pickups, the P90's. But WHAT exact "clear" color was that Clear yellows with time, so how do we replicate that and make it match black rings?

Gibson must have specified a creme color for their pickguards and rings that were used. Probably the reality is whoever shot the plastic molds, had ONE color of creme on some color chart and Gibson chose that. So they ran out of black and had a ton of creme available so it ended up in bobbins along with running their rings and pickguards probably. I think its rather far fetched to think they would have bought a plastic molding company just to make their parts, that just isn't inline with how cheap they were know as being back then (and now). I bet some of those old farts at Heritage might know something maybe. Its rather funny that these guys will pay $6,000 for a Gibson Historic, yet the lineage of people who made the actual vintage Les Pauls is over at Heritage, not Gibson. I noticed lately that Historics are being dumped by the droves on Ebay and don't sell. Bad investment.

[orangedrop]

You all are probably aware of the never ending plastic thread in LPF?
Upgrade Plastics Comparision Thread - Les Paul Forum - quite a good bit of info there.

There is a similar trhead at the other LP forum.

[RedHouse]

...Its rather funny that these guys will pay $6,000 for a Gibson Historic, yet the lineage of people who made the actual vintage Les Pauls is over at Heritage, not Gibson. I noticed lately that Historics are being dumped by the droves on Ebay and don't sell. Bad investment.

Not much of anything selling on ebay for the past year and a half, a bunch of the EDS1275's lately too, but one can allways find a reason not to own a decent guitar if one tries.

[Possum]

...

the plastic thing on the LPF is cool but the very first images are all washed out by overexposure. Cool thread though.

A quick look at what sells on Ebay in Les Pauls, are REAL Les Pauls of the vintage type and Artist signature guitars Murphy aged usually.

[David Schwab]

My buddy buys a lot of those Historics on eBay. I think he has like 18 by now.

He's buying them as an investment and has seen them go up slightly since he started buying them.

The black Custom in the back is older.

[David Schwab]

The clear ones were intentional and were from the early 70's. Those were the "Laid Back" series of pickups, the P90's. But WHAT exact "clear" color was that Clear yellows with time, so how do we replicate that and make it match black rings?

You can't see the bobbins on P-90s and minis, so I guess it was cheaper.

Gibson must have specified a creme color for their pickguards and rings that were used. Probably the reality is whoever shot the plastic molds, had ONE color of creme on some color chart and Gibson chose that. So they ran out of black and had a ton of creme available so it ended up in bobbins along with running their rings and pickguards probably.

Yeah, that makes sense. I meant to mention they used the same cream for bindings and then got sidetracked.

But either way they never intended you to see the bobbins in the humbuckers.