SRV PE WIRE.

[FunkyKikuchiyo]

The wide range HB and the Jazzmaster are things guys like us obsess over, but having done sales I can say that they are a very marginal (at best) part of the catalog. Jason put a lot of work into the WR humbucker, and I'd bet he doesn't actually make money on it considering the costs of research, tooling and production. I may be wrong, but I might be right enough to show that it may not make sense for Fender to do that for a pickup on a Mexican made instrument. I think it is a labor of love that they are even in production as much as they are. Yeah, they don't hit it out of the park every time. In fact, they have a lot of issues like that precisely because their catalog is too big for them to handle (or their salesmen), and that is my biggest gripe about them. Around 2000-2001, they reduced the catalog dramatically and it was their best move. Now they're bigger than ever.

They are definitely not Gibson! Gibson hates their dealers - they make threats to shut their best dealers down all the time and make huge demands. They treat warranty people so badly no one wants to do warranty work for them. They were voted in a non-industry survey as one of the worst places to work (does anyone remember where that article came from?), and this is before considering production problems. Sorry, but for me, comparing a guitar company to Gibson is like comparing a leader to Hitler. You do it for dramatic effect, but you never REALLY mean it. Fender is respectful to their employees, dealers and customers. They mess things up, but they really do try hard to make a good, hip product. I think they work too hard on the "hip" part and not hard enough on the "good" part, but I'm more of a believer in the fundamentals of luthiery than the average sales director.

I haven't seen those shielding issues. I sometimes see weird issues similar to that, and they end up corrected after a little while. Again, I think this is because they have too many instruments in the line up. Some tech needs to go out on the factory floor and show everyone how to do all of this stuff and explain why it is important, or it'll never happen. The average factory worker very well may be a guitar player, but they aren't a tech or luthier and aren't likely to know these things. They are making too many models, and this stuff falls between the cracks. There are absolute gems in the line up and sometimes in the strangest places, but there is so much fluff of them trying to get every permutation of every feature that has been available for the past 60 years.

I'm still curious about the injection molded p-bass bobbin. Not every P-bass (or j-bass or strat or whatever) is intended to be faithful. If it isn't specifically a reissue then there is essentially no attempt to be true to any vintage model, and even then it depends on which price point. The Fender sales guys have no problem admitting this, and I think the website even says it in a sort of evasive language. The Mexican reissues are only supposed to be about 60-70% right, the US Vintage series about 90% and the Custom Shop are supposed to be dead ringers. I'd say they're all about right except the Custom Shop... I've never been fooled by one or their relics. Occasionally I'll find one that looks pretty good, but never that had me guessing.

[NorCalTuna]

Hey, I'm from the amp side of the forum, but really like this thread, I'm totally in love with my now unavailable schaller golden 50s so i've been thinking about getting into winding so I've been lurking : ). You guys are totally dedicated to what you're doing! I do want to say one thing, tone wise though. Nobody here, that I know of, has ever been in the recording booth when the magic is going down, so the "tone in the fingers" attitude is right, but incomplete. That said, I have a few empirical observations to make: The engineers and producers of these recordings- and the front and main house guys on live ones- are half the battle and completely under appreciated, andy johns, donn landee et al were a huge part of it. Jimmy page's supro anyone? I've built reproductions of both caswell's #39 (slash's AFD amp) and eddies 12000 magic marshall and while both of these amps rip, they play better than sound to me. As in, they allow the player to emote and have sustain and good compression etc, but until the playback, they don't really blow your head off tone wise- the bass comes up, the shrillness goes away (mic placement) and the engineer pulls the rabbit out of the hat. Prod can easily pull up undertones while at the same time taming nasty peaks, something that as an amp builder would be much more difficult; making a 10 watt amp sound like it has 100w bass- but thats only 10db of boost at the console.

Also, both SRV and JMH used very, very heavy strings- .013s, which is another huge aspect, both tone and playing wise- I also know that there's monster players out there completely unknown, so I'm not gonna be a "play more and get tone" orifice!

Here's my point: some of your attempts may be MUCH closer than you are realizing if you're listening to the amp directly, especially if you're "down to the wire." If you're really into that space, it might be worth mic'ing up a cab or two. You might be there! Also, my 2C, the Dumble is the only amp I've ever played which seems to record like it sounds, which is possibly part of why it's strongly preferred by many players. I didn't believe in big D until I played a real one- out of spec no less- and played/heard it for myself. I wish I had awesome wire input but the best I can do is tell y'all about how I once changed all the fluorescent lamps in the BICC brand REX wire company, the dirtiest-think 10" piles of black copper oxide dust- job I ever had as an electrician before I became a mechanic.

[David Schwab]

The wide range HB and the Jazzmaster are things guys like us obsess over, but having done sales I can say that they are a very marginal (at best) part of the catalog. Jason put a lot of work into the WR humbucker, and I'd bet he doesn't actually make money on it considering the costs of research, tooling and production. I may be wrong, but I might be right enough to show that it may not make sense for Fender to do that for a pickup on a Mexican made instrument. I think it is a labor of love that they are even in production as much as they are. Yeah, they don't hit it out of the park every time. In fact, they have a lot of issues like that precisely because their catalog is too big for them to handle (or their salesmen), and that is my biggest gripe about them. Around 2000-2001, they reduced the catalog dramatically and it was their best move. Now they're bigger than ever.

What's the point in making a Jazzmaster pickup that doesn't sound like a Jazzmaster pickup? That's why you would use that guitar instead of a Strat or Tele. What if they made Teles with Strat pickups? It even makes more sense in a Mexican guitar because they are cheaper to make, and the pickups for a Jazzmaster are no harder to make than the pickups for a Strat. They could even injection mold the bobbin, like a P-90 bobbin.

The point is they are doing a "reissue", but it's only cosmetic, and there's no reason at all why a big company like Fender can't do an exact repro. Leo made them, and back then he wasn't anywhere as big as Fender is today. A lot of people think they want those Wide Range pickups in Teles, which is why they buy those Teles and not a regular one, right? But people don't want to buy a guitar only to have to buy a boutique pickup that should have been in there in the first place. It's just Fender nickel and diming the guitars. They are taking the most distinctive features out and making them generic.

They are definitely not Gibson! Gibson hates their dealers - they make threats to shut their best dealers down all the time and make huge demands. They treat warranty people so badly no one wants to do warranty work for them. They were voted in a non-industry survey as one of the worst places to work (does anyone remember where that article came from?), and this is before considering production problems. Sorry, but for me, comparing a guitar company to Gibson is like comparing a leader to Hitler. You do it for dramatic effect, but you never REALLY mean it. Fender is respectful to their employees, dealers and customers. They mess things up, but they really do try hard to make a good, hip product. I think they work too hard on the "hip" part and not hard enough on the "good" part, but I'm more of a believer in the fundamentals of luthiery than the average sales director.

I'm aware at how evil Gibson is towards their dealers, and they have been that way every since der fuhrer, I mean Henry took over. But I was referring to their guitars, not their business practices. He's a buffoon, and the guitars reflect that. He has the ego of Hartley Peavey, but none of the talent.

I haven't seen those shielding issues. I sometimes see weird issues similar to that, and they end up corrected after a little while. Again, I think this is because they have too many instruments in the line up. Some tech needs to go out on the factory floor and show everyone how to do all of this stuff and explain why it is important, or it'll never happen. The average factory worker very well may be a guitar player, but they aren't a tech or luthier and aren't likely to know these things. They are making too many models, and this stuff falls between the cracks. There are absolute gems in the line up and sometimes in the strangest places, but there is so much fluff of them trying to get every permutation of every feature that has been available for the past 60 years.

They do have way too many instruments in their lineup. And too many brands. I give them credit for making affordable instruments, but the US made expensive ones always need fretwork to get them to play well, and as I said on some of their instruments the electronics leave something to be desired.

I'm still curious about the injection molded p-bass bobbin. Not every P-bass (or j-bass or strat or whatever) is intended to be faithful. If it isn't specifically a reissue then there is essentially no attempt to be true to any vintage model, and even then it depends on which price point. The Fender sales guys have no problem admitting this, and I think the website even says it in a sort of evasive language. The Mexican reissues are only supposed to be about 60-70% right, the US Vintage series about 90% and the Custom Shop are supposed to be dead ringers. I'd say they're all about right except the Custom Shop... I've never been fooled by one or their relics. Occasionally I'll find one that looks pretty good, but never that had me guessing.

No, I'm talking about P basses that were called reissues. And again, what was the reason for the change? They went out of their way to have something made wrong. Players don't like it, and they end up changing the pickups for something else. I guess they purposely made sucky instruments so people will upgrade to more expensive ones.

[David Schwab]

Hey, I'm from the amp side of the forum, but really like this thread, I'm totally in love with my now unavailable schaller golden 50s so i've been thinking about getting into winding so I've been lurking : ).

How are they unavailable? They still make them.

Humbucker | Schaller-Electronic

I guess there aren't any US dealer selling them?

Oh wait, here you go:

Schaller Golden 50 Humbucking Pickup | Allparts.com

I used to be a Schaller dealer back in the 80s. I had a bunch of those. I don't think they are hard to copy. They were pretty generic but nice sounding PAF copies. There was no Voodoo in how they were made. You can probably get the same tone out of a StewMac kit. Also, some people really like the Stew-Mac Golden Age humbuckers. I always suspected they were made by Schaller or Gotoh.

You guys are totally dedicated to what you're doing! I do want to say one thing, tone wise though. Nobody here, that I know of, has ever been in the recording booth when the magic is going down, so the "tone in the fingers" attitude is right, but incomplete.

???? I've been in recording studios a lot of times. In fact not that long ago. I've been playing guitar and bass for the past 42 years. I can get my tone from anything really. But then I don't stick to one sound. But it always sounds like me.

That said, I have a few empirical observations to make: The engineers and producers of these recordings- and the front and main house guys on live ones- are half the battle and completely under appreciated, andy johns, donn landee et al were a huge part of it. Jimmy page's supro anyone? I've built reproductions of both caswell's #39 (slash's AFD amp) and eddies 12000 magic marshall and while both of these amps rip, they play better than sound to me. As in, they allow the player to emote and have sustain and good compression etc, but until the playback, they don't really blow your head off tone wise- the bass comes up, the shrillness goes away (mic placement) and the engineer pulls the rabbit out of the hat. Prod can easily pull up undertones while at the same time taming nasty peaks, something that as an amp builder would be much more difficult; making a 10 watt amp sound like it has 100w bass- but thats only 10db of boost at the console.

A lot of players have no idea how to get a good tone, either live, or in the studio. They also use way too much distortion. That makes the guitar sound small.

Also, both SRV and JMH used very, very heavy strings- .013s, which is another huge aspect, both tone and playing wise- I also know that there's monster players out there completely unknown, so I'm not gonna be a "play more and get tone" orifice!

You are forgetting that they both tuned the guitar lower than normal, especially SRV. So that makes the thicker strings feel not so lose. Personally I dislike the tone of strings heavier than 10s.

Here's my point: some of your attempts may be MUCH closer than you are realizing if you're listening to the amp directly, especially if you're "down to the wire." If you're really into that space, it might be worth mic'ing up a cab or two. You might be there! Also, my 2C, the Dumble is the only amp I've ever played which seems to record like it sounds, which is possibly part of why it's strongly preferred by many players. I didn't believe in big D until I played a real one- out of spec no less- and played/heard it for myself. I wish I had awesome wire input but the best I can do is tell y'all about how I once changed all the fluorescent lamps in the BICC brand REX wire company, the dirtiest-think 10" piles of black copper oxide dust- job I ever had as an electrician before I became a mechanic.

I guess some people here are trying to emulate another players tone. I'm not into that at all.

[FunkyKikuchiyo]

I'm pretty sure Hendrix didn't use an excessively heavy gauge of strings. In fact, he was known for handing out sets of Ernie Ball slinkies to other players insisting they had to try them because it made bending so much easier - prior to that time, most electric guitar sets had the wound G. String gauge is best chosen in relation to style and how aggressive someone's right hand technique is. If you beat on the thing like SRV disciples, then light strings will sound terrible. If you have a light touch and very good fine motor control, then your tone will be dry and sterile with heavy strings, with not enough high end and way too much "plong" sound on each note.

Vaughan also didn't use the heavy strings for his whole career if I recall correctly - just for a certain era. I thought he sounded better when he used lighter strings, and used strats other than his number one. That one never had any twinkle to my ears - it was just loud and throaty. When he grabbed a backup instrument, he sounded better.

Mr. Tuna does make some good points though - many people chasing a given tone from a recording are forgetting that they are in fact old recordings and impose a certain distortion. Though, I think he said it in a more round-about way. I think that applies more to the average consumer rather than the creators of products - I've seen a lot of players get stuck in a rut because they spent WAY too much time trying to get a certain sound. I try as much as I can to encourage players to just be intuitive... don't think about what other people use, just try it yourself and see 1) if it works, and 2) if you like it.

David - I'm really not sure what P-bass pickups you've seen, but all of the American Vintage series ones I've seen were forbon. You must've seen a Mexican pickup trying to pass off for an American one? Or, maybe you saw one pre-1998? The ones I'm talking about are after '98 when the "reissue" line was dropped.

Yeah the fret work is funny - but that is the case with every brand. You can't find a guitar for under $2k that has perfect fret work off of the shelf. Fender isn't an exception to that rule - in fact, when a Les Paul costs more than twice what a strat costs, I should hope the fret work is better - but I'd put the Fenders ahead of the Gibsons, even if you compensate for price. Most of the time when I see a company make a boutique strat, it really isn't any different than the Fenders, except the fret dress and set up are more finely tuned. I charge around $120 for a fret dress and set up, and those guitars certainly cost more than that beyond the price of the Fenders!

People gripe a lot about finishes not being faithful on certain models - a mexican classic series won't have an old style lacquer finish, for example - but it is all about hitting a price point. Many, many players have been made happy with something that makes certain compromises. If you never make compromises, you end up with a very expensive instrument. I don't always agree with the choices Fender makes, but I get that they do have to make those choices. And, given that they are often (not always) a leader in many price points, I think they're doing pretty well.

[David Schwab]

I'm pretty sure Hendrix didn't use an excessively heavy gauge of strings. In fact, he was known for handing out sets of Ernie Ball slinkies to other players insisting they had to try them because it made bending so much easier - prior to that time, most electric guitar sets had the wound G.

That's right! I forgot about that. When I was replying I was thinking to myself; "Hendrix used heavy strings??" He also sometimes tuned lower. A lot of the guys were using banjo strings before EB came out with Slinkies.

String gauge is best chosen in relation to style and how aggressive someone's right hand technique is. If you beat on the thing like SRV disciples, then light strings will sound terrible. If you have a light touch and very good fine motor control, then your tone will be dry and sterile with heavy strings, with not enough high end and way too much "plong" sound on each note.

That's what I don't like about then. There's this funny attack in the treble end of the tone that I don't like. I was going to say "plincky", but that's more of a thin tone. So plonky is better.

I use very heavy picks on guitar, but I try and get a very smooth tone. I used to practice unplugged to make sure I wasn't getting a plinky tone. At the same time I often pick very hard. The thinner strings react better to that and give a nice snap.

Vaughan also didn't use the heavy strings for his whole career if I recall correctly - just for a certain era. I thought he sounded better when he used lighter strings, and used strats other than his number one. That one never had any twinkle to my ears - it was just loud and throaty. When he grabbed a backup instrument, he sounded better.

I agree.

Mr. Tuna does make some good points though - many people chasing a given tone from a recording are forgetting that they are in fact old recordings and impose a certain distortion. Though, I think he said it in a more round-about way. I think that applies more to the average consumer rather than the creators of products - I've seen a lot of players get stuck in a rut because they spent WAY too much time trying to get a certain sound. I try as much as I can to encourage players to just be intuitive... don't think about what other people use, just try it yourself and see 1) if it works, and 2) if you like it.

This is very true. People have no idea what went on during the recording session too. Like a lot of people were trying to wind pickups to get that Clapton "beano" tone, when clearly (atleast to me) he had both pickups on, the tones turned down, running through a treble booster (I forget if it was a Rangmaster or Hornby Skewes) into the the Marshall combo. You're not going to get a pickup to make that tone all by itself!

David - I'm really not sure what P-bass pickups you've seen, but all of the American Vintage series ones I've seen were forbon. You must've seen a Mexican pickup trying to pass off for an American one? Or, maybe you saw one pre-1998? The ones I'm talking about are after '98 when the "reissue" line was dropped.

I hang out at TalkBass a lot, and people are asking about pickups. Someone posted a photo of the pickup. It had oval looking bobbins, and was made like the plastic Strat bobbins. It was very strange, but it was stock. I also have a 5 string Jazz pickup here from a Fender, and that has a plastic bobbin with ceramic magnets on the bottom. I think that was a MiJ bass. I forget.

Yeah the fret work is funny - but that is the case with every brand. You can't find a guitar for under $2k that has perfect fret work off of the shelf. Fender isn't an exception to that rule - in fact, when a Les Paul costs more than twice what a strat costs, I should hope the fret work is better - but I'd put the Fenders ahead of the Gibsons, even if you compensate for price. Most of the time when I see a company make a boutique strat, it really isn't any different than the Fenders, except the fret dress and set up are more finely tuned. I charge around $120 for a fret dress and set up, and those guitars certainly cost more than that beyond the price of the Fenders!

The thing is they don't seem to do anything to the frets. Just press them in. It's like a factory where volume is more important than quality. Like they have to fill a quota. That's based on greed. How much money do they really need to make in a day?

I saw a video on PremierGuitar of the Schecter factory, and after they receive the guitars from Asia, they level and dress the frets. I was impressed by that.

Gibson is selling US made LP Customs that still have the shaper marks on the fingerboard! That's appalling. They couldn't hit that with some sandpaper? I'm sure they have big stroke sanders made exactly for that. Just churn 'em out. Oh and charge like $12,000 for a Zac Wylde model. WTF? Henry thinks very highly of himself and company I guess.

People gripe a lot about finishes not being faithful on certain models - a mexican classic series won't have an old style lacquer finish, for example - but it is all about hitting a price point. Many, many players have been made happy with something that makes certain compromises. If you never make compromises, you end up with a very expensive instrument. I don't always agree with the choices Fender makes, but I get that they do have to make those choices. And, given that they are often (not always) a leader in many price points, I think they're doing pretty well.

You can get very nice guitars and basses these days for cheap. It wasn't like that back when I started playing. But some of the short cuts they are taking on the pickups make no sense. I have the feeling that they really believe it doesn't matter, that cheaper is better, and so they can charge a premium for the Custom Shop pickups, which are really just what the standard pickups used to be.

[FunkyKikuchiyo]

David, I think we'll see lower price point pickups move leaps and bounds in the next few years as CNC winding is becoming more and more prevalent, and people are thinking more about how to program them. It just takes someone who considers it worth their time to deal with it.

I'm thinking there might be something lost in translation on those p-bass pickups? I know that Fender tends towards ceramic magnets on "modern" style basses, and also that many players seem to respond positively to it. Was the injection molded bobbin you saw alnico rod or ceramic?

What I've seen for fretwork on Fenders has been a quick leveling, and essentially no crowning. If it is a rosewood fingerboard, the smoothing process taken to the tops of the frets will sometimes recrown them a bit, but minimally. If it is maple, then there is absolutely no crown and a big ol' flat spot on the top. Gibson does the same thing, and has for years. I found it hilarious that when they actually bothered to crown frets out of the factory it was with their PLEK machine. So, many guitar buyers were getting new guitars that suddenly played so much better and thanking the PLEK... when realistically it was probably just the fact that someone actually bothered to recrown the frets on that guitar. That is my take on fret work though - crown is more important than levelness for me. I'm yet to see an instrument that retails for less than $2k have a thorough fret dress done from the factory. I've seen a few other fretting issues from Fender - over-arching of the fingerboard at the upper frets (which creates problems that people just blame on the tighter radius and ultimately just shrug off), weirdness with fret slot widths (this usually happens when they change wires, and frankly probably has more to do with their insistence of using Dunlop wire than anything else), and way back when they had a habit of over-beveling, but I haven't seen that in a long time.

That Gibson example is exactly what I'm talking about. I have had two 335s... the first one I sent back because the finish just started peeling off like snake skin. They just replaced it, and the second one is okay, but the scraper marks from scraping the binding on the fingerboard are atrocious. I'd roll my eyes at that on a $500 guitar, and this thing MAPs for around $2400! I've considered unloading the thing just on principle and get something different, but I tend to tie up my finances with pickups and repair tools and really don't want to deal with major gear purchases. I did like their "faded" line when it came out, though. Reasonable prices, and decent woods on those despite the price point.

[MrCandy]

While completing parts certainly affect the sound in fact they are only a part of pickup sound modulation. The wire itself will not give SR sound.
For example of sound modulation we used Fender ORIGINAL 57/62 like base point and modulate our own pickup prototype adding some meat and iron to it (8350nt).
Check files attached.