PE vs Poly wire isolation experiment with sound samples included

[FunkyKikuchiyo]

1 poly
2 uneven coils
3 PE
TRUE OR FALSE ?

That was my guess exactly, actually. Poly has more weird uneven harmonics in the upper ranges - kinda reminds me of how ceramic magnets behave, in pickups or in speakers. I hear that a lot in the first one. It tends to sound like extra pick scrape, even though the difference is the wire rather than the technique. The second one had a more open, hollow sound which is typical of having multiple resonances, though still has those funny harmonics. The third sounds like PE to me; it is cleaner sounding and favors even order harmonics (to my ears anyway, I have no data to back that up), and as an added bonus it sounds more midrangey, which would be entirely explained by the thinner wire.

How about a Canadian fistbump, Craig?

[copperheadroads]

Sure thing Funky

[David Schwab]

so if a 10 foot length from each spool measures a different DCR does that not mean the diameter of the copper is different for each spool?

Yes, and the coil will be a different size, and sound different.

Unfortunately this test is flawed and is not a test of poly vs. PE, but is instead a test of wire diameter.

Wind a coil with 42, and then 43, and see if they don't sound different in the same way as in this test.

Because of that, I say it's #2. I liked #1 the best.

[JGundry]

We really would be glad to do it, but the thing is that when you buy PE real size it is pig in a poke.
The max correct test would be if we have PE wire with 10foot/Rdc= 16.7-16.8 Om (t-20 C ͦ).
We can allow time for maximal correct tests if somebody is willing to send us PE wire like that, otherwise it is empty conversation
All Poly we have in stock is stable in caliber and we cant make it fit the random PE sizes

I think you just need to be willing to by enough PE wire to get a spool that matches your poly wire. Honestly your PE wire is not even close in diameter to the Poly wire. I have no problem getting the full range of 42AWG tolerance from PE wire but I have to buy more than one spool to do it.

Also if your coil offset is only 100 turns you are probably getting a .7k-.8K max. offset which is insignificant IMHO.

[ScottA]

Let me preface this by saying I applaud what you are trying to do here.

But, I think your resonant frequency measurements are compromised. In general in your other threads I've noticed this, and here you are reporting well over 10 KHz for a humbucker measuring DCR in the 7 K range and inductance a little over 4 H (both typical for a "PAF" target humbucker). I have never measured, or seen reported, resonant frequencies that high for this class of design.

For instance, Errede reports frequencies between about 3.5 and 8.5 KHz for various humbucker designs. Seymour Duncan reports from about 6 to about 8.1 KHz for humbuckers in this range ('59, Pearly Gates, Seth Lover, etc.).

[big_teee]

What I think is a valid experiment, is that you can compare 5k TPL of each.
If This size is typical for his wire, and the other is typical for that particular brand of PE.
It does demonstrate the diff, between 2 wires.
I wonder what brand of wire the Mojo PE is.
I have a 6 pound roll of MWS, that was made by REA, and on the spool it says 1.61 Ohm per foot.
I don't have a micrometer so I don't know the size.
A full spool of My PE wire is always low in DCR compared to my other wires.
He's already done all the work.
So we might as well have fun with the experiment, and see how it turns out, and go from there.
Terry

[FunkyKikuchiyo]

It is still a worth while experiment - I think most ears can separate out the qualities of changing wire diameter and wire insulation. It isn't perfect, but the sound samples are still illustrative, and sound similar to what I've discovered. It may not be terribly useful to the average player, but since we're all professionals here I don't think it is all that hard to listen through those imperfections. As for the raw data, I'm not sure if there is anything as useful there.

[copperheadroads]

How were the sound clips recorded ? miked amp maybe or with an midi Interface
I tried recording sound clips straight to my computer using a digitech rp unit
The sound clips were of different winding pattern of pickups with the same number of turns /more turns...ect..
but i found the recorded clips were to close to really tell much difference
but just listening the the amp in a room as you would swap a pup quickly. you could hear the difference very easily

[David Schwab]

It is still a worth while experiment - I think most ears can separate out the qualities of changing wire diameter and wire insulation.

Well, to me the difference in thinner wire is what you hear in clip 2. It's tighter and thinner, not as round and juicy. And that has noting to do with the insulation type.

Thicker insulation will have a similar affect, and make it rounder and juicier.

[MrCandy]

Let me preface this by saying I applaud what you are trying to do here.

But, I think your resonant frequency measurements are compromised. In general in your other threads I've noticed this, and here you are reporting well over 10 KHz for a humbucker measuring DCR in the 7 K range and inductance a little over 4 H (both typical for a "PAF" target humbucker). I have never measured, or seen reported, resonant frequencies that high for this class of design.

For instance, Errede reports frequencies between about 3.5 and 8.5 KHz for various humbucker designs. Seymour Duncan reports from about 6 to about 8.1 KHz for humbuckers in this range ('59, Pearly Gates, Seth Lover, etc.).

All we gonna say is that the measurements are ok, we measure the true value of the resonance peak where probe is not a load for the coil. About Seymour Duncan and his reports please measure RP of his pickups coils with any method you can find in the thread here and this post here and compare the actual results you will get with results written in d catalog. You will be surprised and tell us about it.

Best wishes
MrCandy

[MrCandy]

Also if your coil offset is only 100 turns you are probably getting a .7k-.8K max. offset which is insignificant IMHO.

We conduct a test with an equal Number of Turns.
What you offer namely, a special selection of DCR works fine when you need to make a client happy

[JGundry]

We conduct a test with an equal Number of Turns.
What you offer namely, a special selection of DCR works fine when you need to make a client happy

I don't tell clients the offset. The point is 100 turns offset is nearly nothing tonally. I just know from experience that 100 turns at the end of the coil is going to come to around .7K in resistance +/- based upon wire diameter and or turn per layer count. I wind everything in a room that I keep at 74 degrees F year round and since I mic the wire and am familiar with the materials, a resistance reading for each coil right of the machine is useful. You might be surprised to know that I take QC very seriously which is actually why I see problem with the wire diameter as it relates to this test.

[Mike Sulzer]

Let me preface this by saying I applaud what you are trying to do here.

But, I think your resonant frequency measurements are compromised. In general in your other threads I've noticed this, and here you are reporting well over 10 KHz for a humbucker measuring DCR in the 7 K range and inductance a little over 4 H (both typical for a "PAF" target humbucker). I have never measured, or seen reported, resonant frequencies that high for this class of design.

For instance, Errede reports frequencies between about 3.5 and 8.5 KHz for various humbucker designs. Seymour Duncan reports from about 6 to about 8.1 KHz for humbuckers in this range ('59, Pearly Gates, Seth Lover, etc.).

MrCandy claims to be able to vary the coil capacitance by about a factor of twelve by use of winding techniques. That is, the resonant frequency can vary nearly 3.5 times. This would make unusually high resonant frequencies possible, as well as unusually low ones.

SD does not state the conditions under which the frequencies are measured. I suspect that there may be a length of cable in use. MrCandy incorrectly claims that a 1 Mohm input impedance (even with small capacitance) can significantly affect the resonant frequency, so there might be something strange about his setup. Also, you have to be sure whether he is measureing the coil alone or with slugs in place. There might be somewhat less than a factor of two difference.

[marku52]

Mr Candy's numbers are from individual coils, before potting. They do seem high from my experience, but the numbers ScottA are quoting are for assembled potted humbuckers, and will be much lower than the resonant frequency numbers for individual unpotted coils (both the potting and the higher assembled inductance lower the measured Fres).

[copperheadroads]

That's right, These numbers are just bobbins ...no slugs,screws,baseplate,Keeper, magnet & leads