new gibson ccontrol cavity circuit board CRAP

[David Schwab]

Its a matter of opinion, basically now we have printed circuit guitars with computer connectors.

It's not a computer connector.

Its come back to would you rather have a point to point hand wired amp or a printed circuit amp.

That only matters for tube amps, not solid state circuits, and there are plenty of nice sounding tube amps with circuit boards and hybrid construction. It's all about how you lay our the board.

But none of that matters in a guitar.

I'm sure David you'll say there is no difference but I've played plenty of both and the PC board amps lack a certain organic warmth and musical transparency, I'm talking guitar amps, not bass amps.

But you are talking about two different amp designs, not the same design done both ways. Most tube bass amps are based on the Fender showman, while things like Marshalls are based on the bassman. So which is a guitar amp and which is a bass amp?

I use a solid state Trace Elliot amp, and in one of the bands I play with, one of the guitarist plays his acoustic guitars though the same model amp. It sounds really natural and organic (what ever organic means for sound)

Also, go back to all those great ZZ Top records from the 80s. The guitar was played through a solid state Rockman effects unit, printed circuit board and all.

I also dislike guitars wired with real thin plastic coated wire, it ends up sounding shrill and not very transparent/organic as well. PC board circuits are super thin, a big fat wire just sounds better, there is also the issue of weird capacitance things that happen on PC boards that a wiring harness doesn't have.

You are going to have to demonstrate that, because it gets back to the placebo affect, like the guy who swore that clear lacquer on the magnets on his Jazz bass changed the tone. If anything, a properly layed out PCB will have lower capacitance because the traces have a space between them, while wires often touch.

I can see that eventually Gibson will probably have a complete drop in PC board that contains all the wiring as etched circuits. Sure, if you're playing with alot of distortion then maybe it sounds ok, but plug into an unforgiving hand wired Silverface amp played clean and compare to a real wiring harness and I bet the PC board stuff will be lacking. Gibson is trying to cut costs and quality is going down the toilet with it. Those little switches just don't last, a good Switchcraft monster will last you what 60 years now? ;-)

That's pretty much what they did. They could take it a step further and put the resistive elements from the pots on the board, but that would be silly.

But once again, show that one of these guitars sounds different from one made with wire.

I have seen plenty of evidence of the horrible quality of Gibson pots, cracked carbon traces, 300K pots etc. etc. Its so hit or miss I do recommend owners replace them with known quality, known values, and dump the fake bee caps. If I'm selling PAF repro's I make sure they are going into a known harness so if there's a problem I can tell them how to fix it, a stock wiring harness can kill good pickups, good pickups can't give their best thru a harness thats killing the good stuff. I expect some are going to argue endlessly against what my opinion is, but I deal with harnesses on a daily basis thru customers and in my own guitars, this is coming from actual experience and not something I read on the internet or someone's theories. High technology doesn't necesserily mean high musicality, thats for sure.

These Gibson pots are made by Bourns. How would they be any different from the Bourns pots you buy elsewhere?

And at the time, a PAF was high technology.

[MrCandy]

I think that we dont need to worry about PCB. We need to worry about 1cent caps they use.
They could ve use normal capacitors for example like copperheadroads showed us here.
But in my personal opinion in issue you discuss its better to use good quality PIO capacitors.
For example we use capacitors like in image attached.

[David Schwab]

I think a good reality check here would be if you bought a vintage 1959 Les Paul, would you put a printed circuit control panel and computer quick connections for the pickups in it?

No, just because it's a rare guitar, but what difference would it make? These new Gibsons are not 52 years old, and you wouldn't hear any difference anyway.

I put Bill lawrence L-250s in my '72 Fender Mustang, and that guitar sounds great.

[big_teee]

Your back to the New vs. Vintage Argument.
SD likes Vintage, and DS is always wanting to reinvent the wheel.
They both will work.
Personally, I think If It Ain't Broke, Don't Fix it!
IMO I like low Tech and vintage!
T

[David Schwab]

Your back to the New vs. Vintage Argument.
SD likes Vintage, and DS is always wanting to reinvent the wheel.
They both will work.
Personally, I think If It Ain't Broke, Don't Fix it!
IMO I like low Tech and vintage!
T

I'm not reinventing anything, I'm just pointing out that the whole idea of "vintage" is nonsense. We are talking about electrical connections. It wont make a different if you use cloth covered wire or a PC board. The only reason people want to go with "vintage correct" would be for restoring a vintage instrument, or for aesthetics. Otherwise it makes no difference.

If you think it makes a difference, it's just wishful thinking.

The advantage to using a circuit board is the time saved wiring up a guitar. The disadvantage is it's harder to modify. But the guitar was not made to modify, that's just stuff people like to do. And if you have any skill, it would be easy to change the pickups in a Gibson with a circuit board.

But don't expect the guitar to sound different if you remove the circuit board and replace everything with same value parts and the same wiring setup.

[big_teee]

That's why I said If It Ain't broke Don't Fix it.
Your Correct, if all else is equal they will sound the same.
I'm not Intimidated by a Soldering Iron, and that is the Draw and Selling Point.
Most Young Folks want Quick Connections.
There is room for both, But I don't need them.
I did High tech for 42 Years, Like I've said when guitars start using Cat 6, and Fiber Optic Cables, I'm Gone!
It looks like They are headed in that direction.
T

[Sweetfinger]

Also, go back to all those great ZZ Top records from the 80s. The guitar was played through a solid state Rockman effects unit, printed circuit board and all.

You mean those HORRIBLE sounding ZZ Top records that spoiled the band for me? Worst BG tone EVER! (and I'm including the late 70s direct-into-the-board clean tones, too).

[Possum]

I have a Rockman, sure doesn't sound like ZZ Top to me, the tone was designed to sound like the band the designer was in and it sure does, I forget what band he was from but they were big time back then, I think it was Boston.

Dave you always have a bass player's point of view, I can rely on that ;-) Bass players really like new modern gimmicky basses with alot of active circuits and switches, but guitar players in general don't unless they are metal players. In all my years of playing I've never seen a guy with EMG's show up at a blues jam, I had those guys as clients for 14 years and they installed all that PC active stuff in my strat. After six months of playing it I picked up a cheap strat a bandmate had and played it, and next day threw all the EMG stuff in the trash, and put back the originals in mine, never went back, the soul just wasn't in that stuff for me. The Rockman by the way sounds horrible played on clean tones, totally useless.

Vintage stuff isn't nonsense, when I made my first humbucker I thought it sounded great, then I started listening to all the classic rock stuff and those old PAF's had something you can't find in any factory made modern products, after years on that trail I know most of why that is and how to get most of it. You can't buy parts from the online sellers and make something that sounds like that or I would have been doing it from day one. If you're saying "vintage correct" is nonsense, well no, neither is that true. I would have argued differently 8 years ago, because I hadn't researched enough to find out the validity of materials, wiring techniques etc. that gave us those magic tones. Now, I do agree there is a point where the vintage correct thing becomes ridiculous, like having the correct blank dimple on your butyrate bobbins is just pointless unless you're into counterfeiting and ripping people off with fake products. Vintage correct design though is important and you're not going to find that information on some website somewhere; pretty much every vintage pickup I've looked at in detail, all the easily available information on them is wrong with huge chunks of information missing. Again, I don't find bass players being into the vintage thing hardly at all, I've only seen one real vintage bass at a blues jam in all these years and it was only the guitar players that were lusting after it ;-) I guarantee you if you put that cheap Gibson PC board in a vintage Les Paul you would hear an immediate difference. The old harnesses are sure to be full of capacitances warming up the tones. And yes I do agree paper in oil tone caps are the only way to go for vintage Les Paul tones. The Russian ones are very good, Jensens copper foils can be good for bridge but I found them too round sounding for neck uses, NOS bees are good but not worth the ridiculous prices "pulls" are being offered for on Ebay. So, yeah, you either love the vintage stuff or you don't, you just can't beat an old Gibson archtop with original P90's from the 40's and 50's, nothing modern can match aged nitro'd wood and an aged pickup made with materials that don't exist anymore, jump blues guys know this and its pretty much all they use, they don't use effects and stick to handwired and mostly vintage amps. Neither way is better, but to me putting PC junk in a Gibson is something I would never buy.

[Possum]

Belwar can you pull the back of a Bourns pot and take a photo of the guts? I hear different things about their pots, from them being cheap junk to being ok pots. How do they sound in comparison to CTS or Alphas? Alphas are real dark sounding and have silk screened carbon traces on them, CTS are way more transparent and bright sounding and have decent carbon tracks.

[big_teee]

Belwar can you pull the back of a Bourns pot and take a photo of the guts? I hear different things about their pots, from them being cheap junk to being ok pots. How do they sound in comparison to CTS or Alphas? Alphas are real dark sounding and have silk screened carbon traces on them, CTS are way more transparent and bright sounding and have decent carbon tracks.

Is anyone using the Mojo CTS Pots?
They say in the description that they are made by CTS for MOJO!
I'm fixing to make a MOJO order, I thought I would try some of those.
Terry

[copperheadroads]

They are great quality ,I have not had any problem & I like the taper
I heard RS has the best ,but look at the price of those

[LtKojak]

Is anyone using the Mojo CTS Pots?
They say in the description that they are made by CTS for MOJO!

I've bought a few last order and they're excellent! I was sorry I didn't order more of those... all 500K measured from 498K to 512K, so I was a happy camper.

I must say that I'm quite satisfied with Mojo. They may not have the best prices, but the quality of the service in the few times I had a need, was second to none. They just were there for me, no problem whatsoever, even if I'm not a big account and a couple of times they went well beyond the call of duty just to answer a few questions...

What can I say? I'll be buying from them in the future and I'm not afraid to advice other people to use'em as well.

HTH,

[FunkyKikuchiyo]

I'm with MrCandy on this. PCB is one of those things that scares people because when a company changes over to PCB, they often change MANY other things, but the board is the thing people notice the most. It also leaves more room for sloppiness and crude manufacturing, I think. It is sort of like the bolt-on vs. set neck debate. Bolt ons aren't worse, just different. They do allow for incredibly sloppy fits though - fit a set neck that sloppy, and it'll just fall off. Put some of the worst 70s bolt necks up against a decent Gibson and the Gibson will win every time, but it isn't conclusive on the whole bolt vs. set debate. I don't know that it is very prudent or useful to do this with a guitar (as Sweetfinger went over), but to shrug it off as cheap garbage seems a bit hasty.

I'm still more concerned about physical connectors. They'll have to be cleaned over time, like switches and jacks, while a solder joint is virtually impervious to oxidation when properly done. That seems like a recipe for disaster from a PR stand point.

Oh and MrCandy... I'm shocked to see you making a controversial statement about capacitors without having one of your test threads!

[big_teee]

Oh and MrCandy... I'm shocked to see you making a controversial statement about capacitors without having one of your test threads!

You Did it Now, I See a New Thread or Test coming with Those little Graphs, and Foot Notes on the side!
B_T

[copperheadroads]

heheheh