Question about Insulation of wire

[sn6111]

Hello

Can you tell me how affect the sound the thickness of insulation?
For example: 42AWG Single Enamel and 42AWG Heavy Enamel
Do you hear this difference?

Thank you in advance

[David Schwab]

Heavy build insulations are usually brighter sounding.

[copperheadroads]

I noticed something about some slash pickups on the another forum ,that some humbuckers were wound with heavy enamel wire . (probably Brocotts & probably not plain Enamel wire )
Heavy build wire has a thicker ,fatter & smoother tone ,

[sn6111]

the same type of insulation, one single built and the other heavy build has different tone result?
The plain enamel single and the formwar single has little different?

[David Schwab]

the same type of insulation, one single built and the other heavy build has different tone result?

Yes because each turn of wire is spaced farther apart from the last one because of the insulation thickness. That changes the size of the coil and probably its capacitance too.

The plain enamel single and the formwar single has little different?

I don't use plain enamel, so I can't answer this, but single build Formvar sounds the same as single build poly, and heavy Formvar sounds like heavy poly.

But some winders here claim that plain enamel sounds different from poly.

[sn6111]

Thank you very much David, You really helping me.

[Stratz]

I would suggest that you try the different types of insulation's and come to your own conclusions.
You will find many opinions here on the differences (or lack of) regarding the tonal quality's of various insulation's.

I for one would never use poly coated wire in place of Formvar or Plain Enamel. From my experience they do sound different.

[big_teee]

I prefer HPN over HFV, but that is just me.
I like the sound of HPN on Strat Coils, and I like the Price, and solderability!
Like Stratz says, you will need to come to your own conclusions, your mileage may vary!
T

[David Schwab]

I for one would never use poly coated wire in place of Formvar or Plain Enamel. From my experience they do sound different.

Are you talking about single build Formvar vs. single build poly? Why would it sound different? Formar is polyvinyl formal resin (FORmal VARnish). Poly is generally polyvinyl as well.

I use them interchangeably and don't hear any different for single builds.

[Stratz]

Are you talking about single build Formvar vs. single build poly? Why would it sound different? Formar is polyvinyl formal resin (FORmal VARnish). Poly is generally polyvinyl as well.

I use them interchangeably and don't hear any different for single builds.

I'm well aware of what Formvar is David. Poly and Formvar are not identical and do not sound the same to me and many others as well. If poly were identical to Formvar then it would be solderable.

If they were the same I would imagine that Fender, Duncan and most other builders would use poly rather than Formvar for the lower cost and ease of use.

I believe you have also said that PE and poly sound the same to you. To me the difference between poly and PE is unmistakable. Perhaps you simply don't hear certain tones and timbers that some others can and if that's the case there's nothing wrong with that. But to say that they sound the same is a pretty bold statement.

Terry just stated "I prefer HPN over HFV, but that is just me" so he obviously hears something different between the two.
I can also hear a difference between the two along with many others.
That's why I posted to sn6666 that he should try the different types of insulation's himself and come to his own conclusion.
IMO that's the best way to see if an individual can hear any differences.

Rob

[copperheadroads]

If poly were identical to Formvar then it would be solderable.

Heavy Formvar is solderable ,without sanding ,I have soldered quite a HF strat pickups without using sandpaper

[Stratz]

CLASS 105ºC Formvar is supposed to be stripped before soldering.

[David Schwab]

I'm well aware of what Formvar is David. Poly and Formvar are not identical and do not sound the same to me and many others as well. If poly were identical to Formvar then it would be solderable.

That's neither here nor there. I solder heavy Formvar all the time, so unless you are using the high temperature version, it is solderable. Some polys are also not solderable.

And please explain why it being solderable would change the tone?

If they were the same I would imagine that Fender, Duncan and most other builders would use poly rather than Formvar for the lower cost and ease of use.

They do use poly. They use heavy Formvar. Why? Because that's what the old pickups used and they are making replicas of old pickups. And that was probably only used because that's what they bought, not because of the tone. Same with plain enamel. That's how the wire was made. Fender and Gbson both switched wire types, so apprently they didn't care or didn't hear a difference. It has also been shown that Gibson used or uses black poly on some of their pickups saying it's PE, because people want PE.

I believe you have also said that PE and poly sound the same to you. To me the difference between poly and PE is unmistakable. Perhaps you simply don't hear certain tones and timbers that some others can and if that's the case there's nothing wrong with that. But to say that they sound the same is a pretty bold statement.

You need to be less defensive and go back and read what I wrote. I didn't say that. I don't use PE. I have never used PE. I said single build poly sounds like single build Formvar, and that heavy build poly sounds like heavy build Formvar. This is from my experience making my pickups. I generally use single build wires, and sometimes will use single build Formvar just because I can get it at a good price. I did tests first to make sure it wasn't altering the tone of the pickups. So I wound some with both types and compared the two.

When I use heavy build wire I mostly use Formvar because it's available. But I also have a big 10lb roll of heavy poly. On the same pickup models they sound the same. I think the key thing to many of these insulations is that they are not the same thickness even when they are single build.

Terry just stated "I prefer HPN over HFV, but that is just me" so he obviously hears something different between the two.
I can also hear a difference between the two along with many others.
That's why I posted to sn6666 that he should try the different types of insulation's himself and come to his own conclusion.
IMO that's the best way to see if an individual can hear any differences.

Yes try them all, but also keep in mind that confirmation bias may be playing tricks on your ears. Whenever I propose that people should do some tests and record the two pickups to compare the two, which is what I do, people balk at it and say their memory and hearing is fine.

[David Schwab]

CLASS 105ºC Formvar is supposed to be stripped before soldering.

Set your iron to about 700°F and see what happens. I have yet to run into a wire I couldn't solder.

[Stratz]

You need to be less defensive

I need to be less defensive? WTF!
I did not quote you, I wasn't addressing you, I wasn't belittling you, yet you just HAD TO (as you always do) question someone else's opinion.
All I was saying to the OP is not all people think as you do that POLY is the F'ng Super Wire! It does it all! Plain enamel, Formvar, you name it! POLY can do it!!!

Well here's some news for you you over opinionated p*&%.... Not ALL people think that POLY does it all!

Damn, I've been at this stuff for over 35 years and all I did try to tell someone to try different insulation's for himself rather than take your word as the gospel you believe it is and see how HE thinks it sounds. But you just couldn't let it go..... As usual.

Set your iron to about 700°F and see what happens. I have yet to run into a wire I couldn't solder.

Put enough heat to PE and you can get somewhat of a solder joint too.... aint good for it though.

And since you ALWAYS have to get in the last word I'll make it easy for you. I've said all I'm going to say on this topic.