Why do manufacturers give DCR & what specs should replace it?

[ReWind]

I hope not. I definitely didn't intend to argue. I just wanted to share my own thoughts and how I've come to that conclusion through my own experiences. I have respect for David and most anyone who comes here to contribute or share good conversation about a passion we have in common. It's all in the spirit of good conversation and sharing perspectives.

FWIW - I'd say my clients seem to be 50/50 in that some ask for specs, others ask for voicing using descriptions of sounds or examples. I usually have a bit of back and forth with them in either case, digging in a bit more to see where the starting point and destination are, before making a recommendation.

[David Schwab]

Well, I have to respectfully disagree with you on this on this, unless I'm missing that people are posting ALL the specs. Magnet type, size and charge level, coil offset, turns per layer, coil geometry, and the makeup of the metal materials all plays a pretty significant role of the overall voice of a pickup, in my experience. The first few items in that list being more significant than the others, I find.

An extreme example would be a humbucker with a DCR of 7.5k Ohms, 10,000 turns total, divided evenly at 5,000 turns per coil at a machine wound 50 TPL over a 2.5" A5 partially charged and using .08% carbon content alloys would sound very different from a humbucker with a DCR of 7.5k Ohms, 10,000 turns total, but divided with 6,300 turns on one coil and 3,700 on the other, at a machine wound 100 TPL over a 2.25" A2 fully charged using .23% carbon steel.

I said single coils. And the winders I'm talking about are hand winding. I'd bet you they aren't concerned with turns per layer, etc., as they are scattering. So since scattering is random, you would think two pickups would sound different from each other, but they don't.

But take a DiMarzio pickup. They use fully charged magnets and nothing special for the pole alloys. Easy to figure out.

The big questions, have you tried it? Try it and I think you might be surprised.

[Telemachos]

....... if A customer is smart enough to request those High tech specs???
Isn't he Smart enough to Make his own Pickups?W?T?F?
T

Absolutely second that. Let them unwind 9000 winds all by themselves to find out that they didn't find out nothing relevant they could make usage of.

[Telemachos]

Seymour Duncan tell you the DCR, inductance and self-resonant frequency of their pickups. I think those three numbers tell you a lot.
....

Yeah, especially when those advertised specs are wrong. All SD pick ups that I had on my bench didn't even mirror one single varable of their online advertised specs sheet. In some cases they were way off to great extend. These puplications ain't give you nothing but a fuzzy warm feeling at best.
Guitar players can be difficult customers, especially those of the breed who don't really know what they want and probably never will. That's a good thing because it it keeps us all busy. Although sometimes a little difficult, it usually takes not much to discuss a custom made pick up order w. a customer. But once you give them specs. they don't understand you mess it all up and the situation will become totally confused. It will eat all your day w/o any reasonable result. You don't go to a doctor to let him give you an in depth tutorial in anatomies or s.th.
If customers insist in specs rather than using their ears, they ain't the right customers for me. These people are often prone to psycho acoustics and sure need an other person to take care of their demands. I'm happy staying out of this.

[mcgruff]

But suppose you gave them resonant frequency and Q factor. Isn't that useful, objective information, much more so than DCR? Someone looking for a "bright" pickup could quite quickly figure out which models he might be interested in, and take it from there.

[Steve Conner]

Yeah, especially when those advertised specs are wrong. All SD pick ups that I had on my bench didn't even mirror one single varable of their online advertised specs sheet. In some cases they were way off to great extend. These puplications ain't give you nothing but a fuzzy warm feeling at best.

I suspect SD might add some sort of loading to the pickup to mimic the tone controls and guitar cord. The capacitance of the guitar cord makes a huge difference, so if you use a different capacitance, you'll get completely different answers for Fo and Q. And as far as I can see, SD don't tell you what they used.

Either that, or it's the other way round: they don't use a loading network, but you did because you measured the pickup in a guitar.

[Telemachos]

Not much but that's what they're giving to you

[big_teee]

I contend if your not selling many pickups with basic data?
Listing everything including the Sink won't help sales that much!
Bottom line on Booteek pickup sales, they either like the sound of them or they don't.
There's a Guitar tech, and Teacher in a local guitar store, that plays a 73 big head strat with my pickups.
He has sold umpteen sets for me, because they want to know where they can get a set that sounds just like that!
None of them asked for any Numbers or any Specs!

[Mike Sulzer]

And as far as I can see, SD don't tell you what they used.

And they will not. I asked Frank on this forum once; he declined to say. I suspect the pickup is loaded with something sort of reasonable, but what good is the information if you do not know?.

[LtKojak]

But suppose you gave them resonant frequency and Q factor. Isn't that useful, objective information, much more so than DCR? Someone looking for a "bright" pickup could quite quickly figure out which models he might be interested in, and take it from there.

Bad idea.

You're kinda assuming the customer actually have some knowledge 'bout p'up designing.

They have NONE. That's why they come to YOU. Because YOU are the expert that they wanna use to solve their tone problems.

Rule #1 of sales: the more you talk, the less chances you get to make a sale.

Specs? None. Just ask him what tone he wants to get and after some time present him the product. 99% of them will love it and will rave for a while with all his friends, so get the money before the honeymoon period expires and you'll be alright.

That's the way it works.

HTH,

[mcgruff]

I'm not so cynical, I'm glad to say, as to set out to "get the money before the honeymoon expires" and I wouldn't do business with anyone who treated me like that.

I think you'll find that guitarists do understand what frequency is and are quite capable of understanding the significance of resonant frequency. Suppose a catalogue lists "a warm, high-output pickup with a broad peak at 3k". That's an objective measurement which actually means something whereas "a warm, high-output pickup with 11k resistance" doesn't tell us anything by listing the resistance value.

Suppose I have a pickup with a resonant frequency at 3k, and I'm looking for something brighter: I'll know not to buy this one and maybe try the model at 4k or 5k instead. I can't compare sound based on DCR unless everything else is equal - and it isn't.

[big_teee]

I'm not so cynical, I'm glad to say, as to set out to "get the money before the honeymoon expires" and I wouldn't do business with anyone who treated me like that.

I think you'll find that guitarists do understand what frequency is and are quite capable of understanding the significance of resonant frequency. Suppose a catalogue lists "a warm, high-output pickup with a broad peak at 3k". That's an objective measurement which actually means something whereas "a warm, high-output pickup with 11k resistance" doesn't tell us anything by listing the resistance value.

Suppose I have a pickup with a resonant frequency at 3k, and I'm looking for something brighter: I'll know not to buy this one and maybe try the model at 4k or 5k instead. I can't compare sound based on DCR unless everything else is equal - and it isn't.

So what answer do you want?
Apparently someone has a new LCR Meter, and wants to post Specs with their Pickups.
Go for it!

[LtKojak]

I'm not so cynical, I'm glad to say, as to set out to "get the money before the honeymoon expires" and I wouldn't do business with anyone who treated me like that.

Oh yeah? And how would you know?

I think you'll find that guitarists do understand what frequency is and are quite capable of understanding the significance of resonant frequency. Suppose a catalogue lists "a warm, high-output pickup with a broad peak at 3k". That's an objective measurement which actually means something whereas "a warm, high-output pickup with 11k resistance" doesn't tell us anything by listing the resistance value.

Suppose I have a pickup with a resonant frequency at 3k, and I'm looking for something brighter: I'll know not to buy this one and maybe try the model at 4k or 5k instead. I can't compare sound based on DCR unless everything else is equal - and it isn't.

Your mind is already made up on the subject of giving specs at all costs, so the question here is you don't like what's usual so you want to give others.

I, for one, don't see the point of changing the usual meaningless info with other just as meaningless for everybody but you.

I've given what I think was good advice. Good luck; you're gonna need it!

[Telemachos]

From reading some manufacturer's and also some boutique guy's web sites, I get the impression that they all think that giving data makes them look more scientific and more sophisticated. Even the verbal descriptions of some winders sound ridiculous. I wonder how much time they have to write all that snake oil propaganda. Seems that the less they understand about pick ups and how they should sound like, the more they try to impress w. data and all kind of Tutorials on their web sites.

[mcgruff]

So what answer do you want?

Whatever you've got.

Suppose I've got a pickup with a resonant frequency of 4k and I want something brighter. Maybe one pickup sold as "bright" isn't actually any brighter than the one I've got but another is. DCR might not tell me that (might if they are the same basic model) but resonant frequency always will.

Or suppose I'm looking for a bridge pickup in a 335 and I want a nice clucky tone in the mid position - which depends on the balance between the two pickups' sounds.

Or any other situation where the customer wants some objective information about the tone. As a customer, I tend to buy from places who explain things to me.

Resonant frequency and Q factor seems to be the best suggestion so far for replacing DCR - but please do suggest anything you think might be better.

That's actually a bit of a mouthful: they could simply be called "peak" and "width" in pickup specs. People would get it, no problem at all.