Why do manufacturers give DCR & what specs should replace it?

[Joe Gwinn]

That is a good idea, better than power spectra (which is what most people have available). The power spectra lose the phase information that help determine the exact shape of the impulse response. Maybe phase is not too important since the ear mostly hears frequency response, but the pickup runs to a non linear amplifier before getting to the ear (for most electric guitar), and the harmonics generated can be a function of the shape of the impulse. Generally,"low quality" amplifiers, that is ones with non linearity, tend to make it harder to hear differences on recorded material. But with guitar, the amp is part of the function generation system.

I agree, but phase is a bit tricky.

For telephone circuits, phase is not important. Bell Labs tested this extensively, because they wanted to know if they had to design long distance telephone circuits to be phase linear (which preserves wave shapes) or not, with a lot of money riding on the answer. Turns out phase linearity is not required for understandable speech.

For music, it isn't quite as clear, and the better the fidelity the more phase linearity seems to matter. This was the basic point of the stuff about architectural acoustics and the feeling of presence: LARES - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. Follow the links to David Griesinger.

There was also a thread on this, and there are some microphone makers that emphasize phase linearity out to 50 KHz.

As for guitars, I have always felt that the handling of the attack transient required phase linearity.


I would point out that given a measured impulse response function, one can compute the complex spectra, from which one can compute the power spectra. So, the impulse response is the more fundamental measurement.

[Mike Sulzer]

I agree, but phase is a bit tricky.

Indeed it is. Extreme phase variation is extremely audible (Art Ludwig's Sound PagePhase_audibility.htm) There is a sort of gray region where phase change becomes frequency change.

However, small time invariant changes in the phase of harmonics in a signal do not seem very important.

[Joe Gwinn]

Indeed it is. Extreme phase variation is extremely audible (Art Ludwig's Sound PagePhase_audibility.htm) There is a sort of gray region where phase change becomes frequency change.

However, small time invariant changes in the phase of harmonics in a signal do not seem very important.

Here's a better link:

Audibility of Phase Distortion

[Mike Sulzer]

Here's a better link:

Audibility of Phase Distortion

Yes, thanks, that is the page I wanted.

[Zhangliqun]

You're bringing in all kinds of variables that are of course relevant, but become irrelevant once I say -- yet again -- all other things being equal. That means the same pickup type, same coil geometry, same magnet(s), etc. Allow me to repeat that: same pickup type, same coil geometry, same magnet(s), same insulation and build, etc.

The attitude in here and elsewhere seems to be that if DCR doesn't tell you everything, then it doesn't tell you anything, which is just silly. No other spec is all-or-nothing like that, why expect this of DCR and then completely discount it if it doesn't deliver and keep all the others? The amount of wire on the bobbin actually does matter, and in the absence of an ability to count the turns or to be even more accurate, measure the total length of wire, DCR is a decent rough guide to ballpark it. Why does everybody have to freak out and rebel when I say that?

So if You tell the guy the pickup is a vintage strat bridge Pickup wound to 6.5k?
So what does that tell you, Not much?
6.5k of 42 heavy won't sound like 6.5k of 42 Single.
And if you know that 6.5k, will 6.5k of 43 PE or 43 HFV sound the same.
Or if it is 6.5k of 44 SPN, PE, etc, what will it sound like?
If the bobbin height is .390", wound to 6.5k will it sound like 6.5k of a bobbin height of .430" ?
What will that 6.5k sound like with hot full charged A5, or 6.5k with A2, or A3 Magnets.
Do you see how meaningless these figures can be?
So how much info are you going to tell them.
I'm just asking the question here.
That is why I try to avoid all of that and discuss type, and tone required.
T

[big_teee]

You're bringing in all kinds of variables that are of course relevant, but become irrelevant once I say -- yet again -- all other things being equal. That means the same pickup type, same coil geometry, same magnet(s), etc. Allow me to repeat that: same pickup type, same coil geometry, same magnet(s), same insulation and build, etc.

The attitude in here and elsewhere seems to be that if DCR doesn't tell you everything, then it doesn't tell you anything, which is just silly. No other spec is all-or-nothing like that, why expect this of DCR and then completely discount it if it doesn't deliver and keep all the others? The amount of wire on the bobbin actually does matter, and in the absence of an ability to count the turns or to be even more accurate, measure the total length of wire, DCR is a decent rough guide to ballpark it. Why does everybody have to freak out and rebel when I say that?

As if it wasn't discussed enough?
Tell us what all Specs you tell a customer, and Why?
And, what all you put on a pickup?
Do you also tell wire type, pattern, magnet strength, etc?
I try to stay away from giving too much info, but your welcome to give all you want!

[Zhangliqun]

I'm not arguing that we should put this or that on the box or on the baseplate sticker. Like everyone else I don't give a ton of info on the site or sticker, just the usual suspects, because much more than that is impractical. I talk directly to my customers and try to make my recommendations based what they tell me about their guitar, rig, sound they're after, etc. If other specs become relevant to the conversation then I will bring them up. So it seems we are more or less in agreement on that.

My only soapbox here is I'm sick of the "DCR Is Meaningless" mantra. If that's true, then all specs are meaningless because none of them tell you much by themselves and even all of them put together don't really tell you what a pickup sounds like or how it feels. If that's been discussed enough, well, I don't care.

As if it wasn't discussed enough?
Tell us what all Specs you tell a customer, and Why?
And, what all you put on a pickup?
Do you also tell wire type, pattern, magnet strength, etc?
I try to stay away from giving too much info, but your welcome to give all you want!

[Justwannano]

Removed.

[big_teee]

I'm not arguing that we should put this or that on the box or on the baseplate sticker. Like everyone else I don't give a ton of info on the site or sticker, just the usual suspects, because much more than that is impractical. I talk directly to my customers and try to make my recommendations based what they tell me about their guitar, rig, sound they're after, etc. If other specs become relevant to the conversation then I will bring them up. So it seems we are more or less in agreement on that.

My only soapbox here is I'm sick of the "DCR Is Meaningless" mantra. If that's true, then all specs are meaningless because none of them tell you much by themselves and even all of them put together don't really tell you what a pickup sounds like or how it feels. If that's been discussed enough, well, I don't care.

Agreed!
My point, I don't give anymore info than necessary.
Usually they like your pickups, or they don't!
Peace and Tone!
T

[Zhangliqun]

Issue resolved. And we move on...

[mcgruff]

Some pickup manufacturers show little bar graphs for "bass-mids-highs". Maybe this is the best thing to do, particularly if there was some standardised way to translate resonant frequency into bass, mids and highs.

Maybe add one more bar for "output", again using some standard reference.

Simple to understand, explains the essence of the pickup at a glance, allows people to compare different pickups, and of course you can still go into the other characteristics in more depth in the blurb.

[RedHouse]

...Almost Identical shapes to the Frequency response graphs ... but they sound different.

Welcome home Steve!

[RedHouse]

...If that's true, then all specs are meaningless because none of them tell you much by themselves and even all of them put together don't really tell you what a pickup sounds like or how it feels. ....

And why we must ALWAYS go back to using the appropriate tool for the job.
(the "ear")