Can CSC machine be programmed to do scattered winding?

[Alan0354]

I am just curious whether the CSC machine be programmed to do scattered winding?

Thanks

[SonnyW]

I am just curious whether the CSC machine be programmed to do scattered winding?

Thanks

Certainly, but that depends somewhat on your machine, and somewhat on what you consider to be scattered winding. I do use my CNC machine to reproduce some good hand winding techniques. But I don't do a multiple ton of layers to get the results I need. Most of the time I use a maximum of five different layers to get the tone I am seeking. (my machine could be programmed for up to 999 different layers if I wanted to. that would be a LOT of trouble to do.) I vary the TPL and the starting and ending coordinates and similar things on each layer. I try very hard to copy what I have seen in videos posted online, and what I have unwound. I have studied by videos online the hand winding techniques of some famous winders such as Abby etc. I have also then bought their actual handwound pickups and carefully unwound them to learn what was done. For my machine wound pickups I do one thing, and when winding by hand, I do another and average it out. My customers seem to not be able to tell a lot of difference, in fact they seem to prefer the machine wound ones more often than the hand wound ones. I have found that the best sounding pickups IMO don't have a huge amount of variation between layers, or "scatter" if you prefer. I have a few customers with very good ears that prefer the simpler machine wound pickups to my handwound ones with lots more "scatter" in them in actual A-B testing. Just my 2 cents worth on this.

[Alan0354]

Thanks

Do you think Dimarzio, Seymour Duncan hand wind or CSC wind?

[SonnyW]

Thanks

Do you think Dimarzio, Seymour Duncan hand wind or CSC wind?

I think they do both. I know that Seymour Duncan does both but does a lot of hand winding out of tradition. I am not so sure about Dimarzio. But Seymour will tell you which way he does it on any given model if you ask, and I do know that they hand wind a lot. He actually likes doing the hand winding himself and so does Marciella. But they have another 15-20 employees too, and I don't know what they do. I think Dimarzio mostly does CNC lately. Just my uninformed opinion on that. I don't know. They have some very good machines though. CNC winding done right is not bad IMO, in fact I think good CNC winding is preferable in many cases to hand winding done sloppily that is IMO.

[Alan0354]

Thanks

[Lyrebird Steve]

I'm working on this exact project

http://music-electronics-forum.com/t32219/

[Hugh Evans]

Absolutely, I have a CNC winder design in progress at the moment. When finished it will control the winding pattern, number of turns, and tension (both constant and variable.) I also have a fun science project to go along with it. The physics department at UIUC is collaborating with me to evaluate the effects of scatter winding and tension on pickup response curves. Those results will be released into the public domain, because I'm tired of all the "trade secrets" in the pickup winding world. The scientific evidence will expose a lot of BS, and probably have almost no impact on the industry because mojo cannot be defined in scientific terms.

My winder design might be released as a product. A kit is probably more likely. At the very least plans will be released under a modified open hardware license, because I don't mind people making one for themselves or a friend, but I don't want anyone mass producing the things without my permission.

You might want to read up on stepper motors and control software so you can get a better sense of what CNC can do for coil winding.

[Spence]

I would suggest that you can do scatter winding with a CNC machine but you need to programme more than just turns per layer.
There are more variables than that alone.

[Hugh Evans]

To only do TPL with a CNC winder would be a waste of equipment. There is nothing stopping me from going so far as to program entire winds and produce identical coils. This is a big part of why use of control software is so much fun.

[CRU JONES]

....I'm tired of all the "trade secrets" in the pickup winding world. The scientific evidence will expose a lot of BS, and probably have almost no impact on the industry because mojo cannot be defined in scientific terms.

If you are going to be doing a bunch of "Mythbusting", make sure you are up on the current "Myth" trends. I have had a CNC going for, maybe 5 years now. It was frustrating for me to not be given a chance because I didn't "scatterwind". I haven't had anyone ask me about "scatterwinding" in a very long time. Not sure what the current mythical buzzwords are, so ...can't help you there.

I don't share your attitude in thinking these winders are full of bull shit. Winders have been surprisingly forth coming with their "secrets". Spence is a good example. Ever hear his pickups? Good sounding if you ask me. He has given out a lot to this forum over the years. I am someone who has been a benefactor of his sharing. Now, are we going to unwind some of his pickups? Then will we send his designs to Ch1na?

[David Schwab]

It was frustrating for me to not be given a chance because I didn't "scatterwind". I haven't had anyone ask me about "scatterwinding" in a very long time. Not sure what the current mythical buzzwords are, so ...can't help you there.

I hand wind, still, but I never scatterwind. I did in the beginning, but eventually stopped winding that way and the tone of my pickups has not changed. Might be more important for certain designs, but not for what I do.

[CRU JONES]

I hand wind, still, but I never scatterwind. I did in the beginning, but eventually stopped winding that way and the tone of my pickups has not changed. Might be more important for certain designs, but not for what I do.

I'm not sure I know what scatterwinding is. It doesn't bother me if a winder uses the "scatterwound" buzz word either. I still like to hand wind. I am more confident for some things. I never hand wind 44ga stuff. I think I sweat too much and stretch it.

[Hugh Evans]

I'm not "mythbusting" and have no hostility towards professional winders. However, I am a trained musician, scientist, and engineer. With respect to pickups, I plan to carry out a thorough scientific analysis in order to better understand their intricacies... Largely for the reason that if anyone has conducted studies on wire gauge, winding patterns, and tension: they haven't been sharing.

Why all the hostility?

[Lyrebird Steve]

I'm tired of all the "trade secrets" in the pickup winding world.

Hugh, to be fair I think lots of info on this is on these forums. If you want to find out what effect TPL has or Tension has it's available. It's not fully quantified, but it's anecdotally all here.

The scientific evidence will expose a lot of BS, and probably have almost no impact on the industry because mojo cannot be defined in scientific terms.

Again, I think there are plenty of builders making custom pickups that don't rely on BS ... but on listening to what their customer wants and delivering that.

There are the guys that make a handful of "stock models" who rely on "colourful" advertising, but what's new about that ?

If you're the guy that knows how to tweak the build parameters to effect the pickups response to get the tone the customer wants, that's great. Whether its because you know the precise winding parameters required or because you wind your pickups on Tuesday's while wearing red underpants ... the result is the same. A good sounding pickup your customer wants

[Hugh Evans]

Quantification is what I'm curious about. There are people who get great results by approaching it as an art, and to that end one of my absolute favorite pickup makers, Curtis Novak, winds by hand using a clone of Leo Fender's pickup winder. Perhaps my words were too strong, but I have nothing against winders... If I did, would I being carrying on conversations with people on this forum? I have thus far envisioned sharing my results as a final report of my findings.

While anecdotal observations are great, for the most part I have seen lists of TPL and very little about tension. Would it not be useful to have a reference or set of tools that could allow one to duplicate an existing pickup? I suppose the problem I have with your argument, is that you express no desire to understand why a process works as long as there are good results. Consider, for a moment, my viewpoint: I have an insatiable drive to understand everything around me. There is a chance that my studies will find that additional variables exist that cannot be accounted for yet. But if, as I suspect, perfect copies of pickups can be made, would that not be cool?

One issue I have not explored, and that could explain the sudden backlash I am experiencing, is how this information would affect the winding community. I have the utmost respect for craftsmen, and if this data poses a threat I would be open to keeping my result private (or severely limiting its dissemination.) If that's the case, I get it. I'm not in this to mess with anyone's business, and if the cost of freely publishing my findings is that someone goes out of business I would feel terrible.

Perhaps some other people would care to weigh in with their thoughts/feelings.