Using 1960's Plain Enamel Magnet Wire

[NightWinder]

Plan on dropping 150+

[Possum]

micrometers...

I have an old digital Starrett that reads to .00000 places. I paid about $50 for it on Ebay. It has to be digital. Taking a reading off magnet wire is a chore, the wire is so thin that if your turn the post too hard other than just a very light tap on the wire you will crush the wire and it will read what you smashed it down to. Wirenetics guys do this all the time, I ask them to tell me what the O.D. of some wire is and they are way off in their readings, they are just plain dumflucks there. usually you need to take about 6 readings off the wire til you get one thats consistent. The thinner stuff is harder to get a reading, the thicker stuff is easier to read. MWS wire spools often has a micrometer reading on the label so this gives you something to check your readings against, though their readings can be a bit off too. It is a really good investment to have one of these things on hand, Wirenetics has sent me stuff that was totally wrong a bunch of times, I never knew it til I got a micrometer, stuff I thought was regular 42 guage turned out to be 42 heavy build for instance. checking out vintage wire samples is real educational, I've learned alot about what fender was doing pre-CBS and some of it really surprised me......

[Joe Gwinn]

Taking a reading off magnet wire is a chore, the wire is so thin that if your turn the post too hard other than just a very light tap on the wire you will crush the wire and it will read what you smashed it down to.

One trick to reducing the crush error is to bend the wire sample into a tight flat zigzag, so that multiple strands are between the micrometer anvils when measuring.

For the record, the official standard way to measure the diameter of very fine copper wire is to use an optical comparitor. This is basically a calibrated projection microscope. Not cheap, not small, but no crush error at all.

[NightWinder]

Yeah, I'm leary about mics, and ebay.....Stuff like this should be well takin care of.

[WBPickups]

Hey Guys,

First I would like to say thank you to all that has sent me emails and private messages regarding this post and showing your support for me and my products.

I do find it very interesting that people (competitors) here will try to discredit my product and my materials that I am using. I do appreciate that a lot of you spend a lot of time doing your R&D, but you haven't done any on my product so you really just don't know what you are talking about. Have you heard them for yourselves?.... HEAR Them. Isn't TONE the bottom line? Well, the tone sounds fantastic. I am willing to put these where my mouth is anytime.

As for new vs. old wire, to say that my take on this is wrong. Its fine to have your opinion, which is just that: OPINION. But without hearing them yourself, you really don't know. I could go and talk about what they measure to and so on or my winding technique, but I choose not to share this information with my competitors.

A lot of you are saying that wire does not make a tonal difference. Well, than I guess we should all call it day and buy cheap Chinese wire that is so much more reasonable to buy than what we get from MWS. I know for a fact the wire does make a big difference in tone. I have read up on quite a few of you who has been discrediting my wire and my products. It seems that a lot of you have changed your minds as to wire and tone. This wire is something special. I am proud to be offering it to my customers. Some were ready to slam me if the pickups weren't special. Well, they are,and they haven't.

What I find most shocking here is that most of you are my competitors. For you to try to descredit my products and me seems unprofessional and unethical since you have not heard or played the 67-07 pickups. My customers & endorsees have.

Oh by the way here's some pictures from the other night when the 67-07's were played live in concert with the Chris Cornell band. For those interested, I will be posting some video footage and more pictures when I have the time on my news section on my web site from the show...

Pete Thorn ( Chris Cornell guitarist ) WB 67-07 user...

With Chris..

[corduroyew]

Dude, nobody was discrediting your pickups. There was a discussion about the use of NOS wire from the 60's. The same people that had negative things to say about using it were the same people that had good things to say about it. Nobody said anything about what your pickups sounded like. Nobody said that they wouldn't hold up. Some people asked if they would hold up. Some people said it depends on how the wire was stored. That was not dogging you or your pickups. The only real bad thing said about your pickup was that it didn’t look like plane enamel when your website said it was. At the end of the day it wasn’t plane enamel so cheers to wolfe for pointing that out. What people here had a problem with was the fact that you came along and tried to sell your product. I don't believe this was ever meant to be personal. You witnessed professionals analyzing hypothetical situations and asking ourselves if we would do what you did in your situation. You got way too excited about the discussion. Just take a step back from it all… Stop trying to sell us your stuff… and read this thread for what it was meant to be. Better yet, answer the questions submitted by the thread starter. The thread was meant to be about how well the pickups would hold up, not about how good they sound. We all make pickups that sound good. None of us doubt your ability to do it too. What this thread is about is how long do you think pickups built with this stuff will last and why do you think that?

[NightWinder]

Last, but not least, I believe Spence was trying to make an understandable point....Today in this time, any wire can be made, Insulations, coatings, different application methods etc. Mearly put, getting a sample of the wire.....Companys will make it, so maybe in his eyes, its not so special, not so hard to get. By todays standards....that IS Vintage wire. Special? Opinions vary. Can it be made again- Yes.
Theres lots of questions regarding your wire, as should be. Hearing it before you make a judgement??? Thats still iffy too. Guys like Spence (a true leading expert in the Vintage territory...No Shit!),Possum,Jason, myself probably would'nt need to hear it to know what gives or how to get them tones. I think maybe there was more curiousity here about the wire, A noticably high pricetag......But overall genuine curiousity. I would'nt call that discrediting you or your product, but if you choose to put your money where your mouth is and challange everyone to shoot outs......"I'll be your huckleberry".....Find neutral ground, winner takes all(keeps the others pickups)....

[Possum]

Huh??????

I didn't see anybody trying to discredit your work, personally I was trying to educate, because to me it sounds like you don't understand WHY your wire sounds better than regular stuff. I make a set called Platinum PAFs and set one uses wire that I too won't tell you what it is, and I wouldn't be at all surprised that your special wire is the same, just older, different insulator. But I know exactly why it sounds like it does. Like I said, a micrometer and knowing what build wire supposedly is and I can tell you what your wire sounds like. My PAF set is purposefully very open sounding and alot of that comes from the wire, the rest of it comes from using my own steel parts in correct PAF alloys that StewMac doesn't sell :-) Steel is about 80% of PAF tone, wire is the most of the rest, magnets last, my opinion. I think by posting pix of players using your stuff you're just irritating everyone here, as some of us sure could top you with that kind of stuff, myself included. Among my friends for instance are the best guitar players on this planet, you ought to read my bio sometime....
the forum is for discussing knowledge and you seem bent on selling us on your pickups :-) The discussion was about is NOS vintage wire better than new stuff, yes and no is the answer. Fine your pickups are great I'm sure, but so are everyone else's on this forum, none of us make the same stuff, it all sounds different, so lets get off this special wire, my pickups are great kick and get back to discussing the technology of pickup making and sharing information, thats what we're here for. and this isn't meant to sound grouchy or judgemental so don't read that into it :-)

[kevinT]

Will,

There is no reason to discredit you, your products, or your customers. Most folks here don't know you....and haven't heard the pickups.

As i said eariler, i thought that using old wire was a good topic to discuss on the forum that's why i started the thread. If either Possum or Nightwinder or anyone else were doing the same thing, i would have still posed the question. This thread is not about you--it's about using vintage wire....that's it. Granted the thread took some twists and turns but it all comes down to the discussion of using old wire...which i think is a very relevant topic to discuss here.

I trust you and what you're doing with the wire because i'm sure you wouldn't set yourself up for failure to use a questionable component in your pickups. If you're comfortable and your customers like the product, that is the only thing that counts....and i personally think it's a great marketing angle...as Nightwinder said....it's a Limited Edition type of scenerio which always generates interest in the market.

There are a few folks here on the forum that i consider experts. As david schwab said earlier, you get them together in one room and they're going to take an issue and analyze it to death...you shouldn't take it personally.

There is enough pie for everyone to have a piece in this business. Everyone here on the forum wants to see other folks become successful. After all, isn't it why we are all here?

I hope all this doesn't turn you off to this forum (which it probably already has) because i think you have a lot to contribute to it if you wanted to and i hope you return and contribute.

[NightWinder]

Yeah!! After this thread....you should stick around! I think you can contribute to help others learn. Whats cool about it? Well, giving another person some genuine advise, 6 or 8 months down the line someone will ask the same question again , and lowbehold the guy/gal you gave advise too 6/8 months proir...he's anwsering the questions now....Evolving in the purist sense.....

[gilligan]

If you just stop telling everyone how great you pickups are, and join in the discussion things will go much easier for you here. No one really cares what you, or your customers, think of your pickups. This is a place to learn, and debate the finer points of building pickups, not to boast about your products. These guys will celebrate a job well done, but if you don't want the heat don't start the fire. Some of the best post here, and you don't hear them praising themselves, or their pickups. Teach us something, that's what it's all about.
Ron

[WBPickups]

If you just stop telling everyone how great you pickups are, and join in the discussion things will go much easier for you here. No one really cares what you, or your customers, think of your pickups. This is a place to learn, and debate the finer points of building pickups, not to boast about your products. These guys will celebrate a job well done, but if you don't want the heat don't start the fire. Some of the best post here, and you don't hear them praising themselves, or their pickups. Teach us something, that's what it's all about.
Ron

Hey Ron thanks! But I didn't start this. But this is not a place to learn. Learn by doing it and not by following the suggestion of certain people. Have discussions but don't think that this is how you will learn to wind a pickup. Just do it. Keep practicing and you will find your art...

And as for not caring what my customers think about my pickups? That's exactly why I am here. If you want to learn something about making pickups. Here's my lesson for you today.

It is ALL about your customers. PERIOD. Like a few have stated here, everyone loves their own pickups they make of coarse. But if you are selling them. You have to remember, the customers are the most important thing in winding the pickups. Because if your pickups you may love suck, they will be the first to tell you. A few of your so-called professionals here are very guilty of disrespecting the customers. Just research some of their previous posts before you tell me I am wrong...

[WBPickups]

I didn't see anybody trying to discredit your work, personally I was trying to educate, because to me it sounds like you don't understand WHY your wire sounds better than regular stuff. I make a set called Platinum PAFs and set one uses wire that I too won't tell you what it is, and I wouldn't be at all surprised that your special wire is the same, just older, different insulator. But I know exactly why it sounds like it does. Like I said, a micrometer and knowing what build wire supposedly is and I can tell you what your wire sounds like. My PAF set is purposefully very open sounding and alot of that comes from the wire, the rest of it comes from using my own steel parts in correct PAF alloys that StewMac doesn't sell :-) Steel is about 80% of PAF tone, wire is the most of the rest, magnets last, my opinion. I think by posting pix of players using your stuff you're just irritating everyone here, as some of us sure could top you with that kind of stuff, myself included. Among my friends for instance are the best guitar players on this planet, you ought to read my bio sometime....
the forum is for discussing knowledge and you seem bent on selling us on your pickups :-) The discussion was about is NOS vintage wire better than new stuff, yes and no is the answer. Fine your pickups are great I'm sure, but so are everyone else's on this forum, none of us make the same stuff, it all sounds different, so lets get off this special wire, my pickups are great kick and get back to discussing the technology of pickup making and sharing information, thats what we're here for. and this isn't meant to sound grouchy or judgemental so don't read that into it :-)

For one Dave, to say that I am off base on this whole subject. I am not. I did go back and read all the post. and I will explain once and for all why I started to get heated. And after this, maybe I should not be posting here since this is a place to learn as someone has pointed out. I feel that I know what I am doing and since you, Spence and a few others are so pro and have all the time between R&D and making pickups. You don't need me here kissing your asses and agreeing with you because you have made people believe you are the shiz. I'd rather use my time making pickups.

Now Dave, I do not need you to educate me. I do know what makes the all my pickups sound the way they do. I know why the PRE-EPA old wire has a certain articulation and openness that the new wire does not. And I am sorry, but I will not share my findings as to why. I have scoped & tested this wire extensively. This isn't my first rodeo Dave.....

I understand that you are making a "Platinum PAF" pickup. See, here you are trying to introduce your product into this thread. But because I offered you guys to buy my pickup to have something to really talk about. You guys thought I was pimping my product. No, I was not. If your going to analyze someone's product. Shouldn't you at least arm yourself with the product?

A lot of underlying sarcasm was apparent by some here of my materials & products. Which, yes I took offensive at first. You would too. I soon realize that I shouldn't get angry that my competitor's have nothing better to do than talk about my materials & pickups.

No offense Kevin, I am not mad. But when Kevin posted copy written material from my web site here. Which made it really obvious who's wire you are talking about since I am the only one offering this wire. It made it all about my product. Then some of you in your own vague way tried to discredit the wire and me. I am not saying you Dave directly..But you guys cannot seriously deny it. It is obvious not just to me but a few that choose to remain nameless. Someone suggested that the reason I stated that the wire was fragile is to protect myself when the wire fails. Well, I am offering a 10 year written warrenty on this wire. Before you ask, yes. I will be around in ten years if God's willing..

So here's what else kind of made me go huh? Someone suggested to buy my pickups to prove something as if I am purposely trying to dupe my customers. Of coarse, I got defensive. Someone even said, when the wires all gone -- this guy is going to be forced to lie that he still has it, or he's out and the new wires not as good as he implies or shut down, what do you think is going to happen? What did all this have to do with the original question from Kevin?

To me it looked as if you guys were trying to discredit me and my products. And foremost the 67 wire which Spence said that it was never used in vintage pickups. (Wait until you see the video Spence of me repairing a 1967 Patent # Paf. Strangely enough the wire is the same. All shot un-edited and will be posted on youtube later next week or sooner.)

As for me a posting pictures of who is using my pickups and how it's irritating people here? Why would it irritate? Explain please? I am really curious to that. If it was you, I would congratulate you on your success since this is a brotherhood of winders here. Man, don't read my Artist page here in a few months. It will really piss you off....

I have read your bio.. You worked with advertising in the music biz and made jewelry. Very cool. Congrats! Are you suggesting that the artists on your bio page are using your pickups. Are they really using your pickups? Because I can name more than a few on your bio page that I know are not using your pickups. I do know this for a fact by the way.

As for the new or old wire, which is better.... I've already answered it. I choose the old. New wire does make some great pickups as my base models are also great pups made with new wire. OOOPS, here I am promoting and beliving in my pickups again. Sorry. But the 67-07's are night and day vs. the new wire pickups wound the same by me. So there you go. I have answered it again. It's not flaky when winding with it. It was very well preserved. As in NOS condition.

As for being hell bent on selling you guys my pickups. I was not. I feel that if you are going to have a honest OPINION of the WB 67 wire. You should hear them. In other words. If you haven't played them, wound them. You don't really know what you are talking about. Sorry, that's how I feel and a few of you know that I am right.

Dave, you live in Portland. 6 hours from me. I will be in Portland soon..If you really want the ammo to talk about my 67 wires. I will be more than happy to let you try them and even play with some sample wire. I will be planning on staying for there for 3 days.

Now, a lot of you have jumped on this kick that I came here to sell you my pickups. Does that really seem like something I would really want to do? Come to where my competitors hang to sell my pickups... Come on... Are you guys seriously so into your own BS?

I will say that there is a few people here that are stand up guys. But, the PM's to me should have been posted here. Although, I can see why you guys didn't post your messages. In the future, don't let these guys bully you into thinking that they are on the up & up. Because I don't buy it all.. For all those here who are seriously interested in learning pickup winding. Let this be a lesson to you. There will always be someone out there pissed that you are doing something they wish they can. Do what you feel is right for you and your customers. And no, tone is not subjective. It's just an excuse manufactures say when there product does not live up to the expectations of the customer. So, wind them until they love em!

God Bless everyone and slam on!

[corduroyew]

It is ALL about your customers. PERIOD. Like a few have stated here, everyone loves their own pickups they make of coarse. But if you are selling them. You have to remember, the customers are the most important thing in winding the pickups. Because if your pickups you may love suck, they will be the first to tell you. A few of your so-called professionals here are very guilty of disrespecting the customers. Just research some of their previous posts before you tell me I am wrong...

Perhaps you took a wrong turn. This is the pickup MAKERS forum. Not a marketing forum, customer relations forum, business forum, or sales forum. As the name implies, this forum is all about making pickups. It is not all about customers. If you don’t 1st make the pickups you can’t have any customers. Many of the people here are just trying to learn something anyway. Not all of us sell stuff.

[WBPickups]

Perhaps you took a wrong turn. This is the pickup MAKERS forum. Not a marketing forum, customer relations forum, business forum, or sales forum. As the name implies, this forum is all about making pickups. It is not all about customers. If you don’t 1st make the pickups you can’t have any customers. Many of the people here are just trying to learn something anyway. Not all of us sell stuff.

Keep on brotha! I didn't make any wrong turn! Only came here when my 67 wire became a topic to discredit.

Damn, back on the marketing kick? Well, I feel that I can offer something to someone learning. Just wind.. Keep winding until you find out your on to something.