PAF Pickups & Effects of TPL

[A. Winder]

Hi, this is my first post here, and I would like to thank the very knowledgeable pickup experts here for the information they have shared in previous threads. I am trying to make humbuckers with an authentic '50s sound, that is, very clear and dynamic with interesting character. I would be grateful if anyone with direct knowledge could confirm or elaborate upon the information I have been able to gather regarding original PAF winding patterns.

Gibson's Leesona machine seems to have made coils with a TPL of around 50 with some extra winds accumulating at the edges of the bobbin.

My understanding of the function of the other winding machines used by Gibson may be mistaken, but my tentative idea is that the Meteor winder used a varying TPL of about 70, and that the slug-coil winder had a very low TPL which was different right-to-left from left-to-right. Which winder was used the most, and how rare is it to find PAFs with slug coils wound on the slug winder? Apparently at least one other winding machine was used but I'm not sure what it was.

Also, if anyone has completely unwound original PAFs, what number of turns per coil has usually been found? I know that about 5,000 - 5,100 turns is in the right range, but did it often go over this amount?

Thanks.

[RedHouse]

Almost everything you're asking in this post has been covered before in other threads here, ad-infinitum, ad-nausium.

No offence intended but can I ask if you did any searching before posting this?

[Jim Darr]

During that time-frame Gibson also had at least two Geo Stevens winders set up to wind 4 bobbins at a time which were used for both P90s & HBs.

Regarding making an authentic sounding 50s HB pickup, try experimenting until you come up with a formula you like. A lot of the original P.A.F.s sound fantastic while a great many others don't. TPL is only one variable -- although important, equally so are the many other variables that go into an HB. Turn count was all over the board as were off-sets. Magnets varied by type and strength. Alloys are also a critical choice. Magnet wire thickness, insulation type and thickness are important. Then there is winding machine type and winding tension. All these variables contribute greatly to the final sound of an HB style pickup...that is why we have so many winders making their version of a 50s HB. If it were simple we all would have nailed it by now.

[Beef Coon]

I agree with Jim, don't get caught up/bogged down into just those two variables - TPL and TT.

There's a lot of info on this board as well as the archive - start diggin.

That being said, there's absolutely no substitute for direct knowledge/experience.

[A. Winder]

Thank you for all your replies, especially regarding the Geo. Stevens winders. No offence taken at all. I have searched thoroughly on this forum and other relevant forums for information, and whilst this subject has been discussed a great deal, numbers are rarely mentioned and there seems to be a fair amount of speculation and obfuscation of facts. Without having access to original old pickups it is hard to separate the facts from the speculation. I am aware that wire diameter could vary on the old pickups so number of turns cannot be reliably calculated from measuring DC resistance. I imagine that this may have resulted in many modern recreations being overwound with greater coil offsets compared to most original PAFs. The only hard information regarding number of turns I have been able to find is from a very old post stating that according to "Seymore" there were 5,041 turns on the screw coil and 5,122 on the slug coil. It would be interesting to know how much over this amount PAFs have been found to have been wound.

I have experimented with turns per layer, number of turns, offsets, wire types, magnets, and slug and screw alloys, and have learnt a great deal. Perhaps the best anyone can do is to experiment with the available materials and try to make something that sounds good to their ears.

[LtKojak]

Perhaps the best anyone can do is to experiment with the available materials and try to make something that sounds good to their ears.

That's the thing to do. Forget the past, forget old specs. Make your own.

Remember this: "Not everything that can be measured counts, and not everything that counts can be measured"™

HTH,

[soundmasterg]

numbers are rarely mentioned and there seems to be a fair amount of speculation and obfuscation of facts. Without having access to original old pickups it is hard to separate the facts from the speculation.

Getting access to old pickups and dissecting them are what many here have done, but since it has taken them years and lots of money to do, it isn't fair to expect them to just share exactly what they are doing to someone who wants to duplicate it. There just isn't any substitute to doing the research yourself unfortunately.

Greg

[A. Winder]

Getting access to old pickups and dissecting them are what many here have done, but since it has taken them years and lots of money to do, it isn't fair to expect them to just share exactly what they are doing to someone who wants to duplicate it. There just isn't any substitute to doing the research yourself unfortunately.

Greg

I appreciate your reply but feel I must correct several assumptions you have made. Several decades ago, original PAFs were not expensive or hard to obtain. I have spoken with one man, who, in the '70s, completely unwound a PAF coil to use the wire to rewind a Telecaster pickup. I imagine there may be people who researched PAFs back in those days who never spent much money doing so. You have assumed that my question was directed towards people who have spent lots of money dissecting pickups, when this is not necessarily the case. I haven't asked anyone to share exactly what they are doing so I can duplicate it, and I don't think that it is fair to make this implication. I have asked about things which were designed and made more than 50 years ago, the inner workings of which are not the intellectual property of anyone now living. Some of the people keeping secrets about PAFs now were asking similar questions to those I have asked just a few years ago. I do not expect those people to reply. I agree that there isn't any substitute for doing the research oneself, but unfortunately it is highly impractical to do so in the present time. If someone knows the answer to one of my questions, but doesn't want to give it, I feel that they have every right to decline answering, and respect their choice.

Please do not take offense to what I have written, as none is intended in any way.

[big_teee]

Sounds like you're just wanting to make a basic 50s-60s pickup set.
Try some StewMac Kits and start winding.
http://www.stewmac.com/Pickups_and_E...a_bobbins.html
Humbucker Pickup Kit | stewmac.com
A basic Rule of thumb on humbuckers is 42PE, 5000 turns or less for the neck, emphasis on the less.
Bridge 5000 turns or more, emphasis on the more.
There is a lot of basic winding data in the Beginner/Hobbyist Section.
Though the originals were machine wound, You can wind a pretty good pickup hand guided, with minimum scatter.
I put a little more wire offset on the bridge Slug bobbin, and I usually make my neck pickups equal with no offset.
I wouldn't get too hung up on the PAF sound, they are IMO just basic Humbuckers.
Use good wire, good metal parts and components, magnets are important too, and they should sound fine.
GL,
T

[soundmasterg]

I appreciate your reply but feel I must correct several assumptions you have made. Several decades ago, original PAFs were not expensive or hard to obtain. I have spoken with one man, who, in the '70s, completely unwound a PAF coil to use the wire to rewind a Telecaster pickup. I imagine there may be people who researched PAFs back in those days who never spent much money doing so. You have assumed that my question was directed towards people who have spent lots of money dissecting pickups, when this is not necessarily the case. I haven't asked anyone to share exactly what they are doing so I can duplicate it, and I don't think that it is fair to make this implication. I have asked about things which were designed and made more than 50 years ago, the inner workings of which are not the intellectual property of anyone now living. Some of the people keeping secrets about PAFs now were asking similar questions to those I have asked just a few years ago. I do not expect those people to reply. I agree that there isn't any substitute for doing the research oneself, but unfortunately it is highly impractical to do so in the present time. If someone knows the answer to one of my questions, but doesn't want to give it, I feel that they have every right to decline answering, and respect their choice.

Please do not take offense to what I have written, as none is intended in any way.

No offense at all, and don't think that I was accusing you of trying to steal others hard-won secrets or anything. Sorry if it came across that way. You can build a kit, but their metals are all wrong for their slugs and keepers to duplicate that nice, crisp bottom end, and the metal choice will greatly affect the sound. You can make a good sounding pickup with the kits though, just not very close to a PAF and more like other Gibson, Duncan, DiMarzio etc., humbuckers. The inner workings of PAFs aren't IP for anyone, but on the other hand to get the info about how to duplicate that sound requires original pickups and they are very expensive. Then if you have the original pickups, you have to sacrifice magnets and metal parts and get them analyzed, get wire analyzed etc., to find out what they were made of. Then there is the actual winding of the pickups...how they were wound and all the details associated with that, type of wire, number of winds, etc. Its a long hard road to get that sound and many claim to a never do. Good luck with it!

Greg

[A. Winder]

Thanks for all the suggestions, but I've been making pickups for several years already and feel I am getting very close to the sound I have been going for. Perhaps it was futile to ask these questions. Lt. Kojak's advice is probably the best answer I will get.

[big_teee]

A lot of that magic was in some of the Guitars themselves.
I have had some of those magic LPs and Magic Strats come through my shop.
They sound great whatever pickups are in them.
T

[LtKojak]

Thanks for all the suggestions, but I've been making pickups for several years already and feel I am getting very close to the sound I have been going for. Perhaps it was futile to ask these questions. Lt. Kojak's advice is probably the best answer I will get.

The thing is: even you get real specs from an actual '59 PAF, you get to re-make THAT ONE IN PARTICULAR, so, you have to ask yourself: was that one a good-sounding one or or a rabid dog with fleas? How would you know?

No two PAF p'ups were wound in the same manner, with the same batch of wire, same alloy slugs and/or screws, hell; not even the same batch of magnets. Also, you can't get EXACTLY THE SAME WIRE AND/OR SLUG AND SCREW ALLOYS UNLESS YOU NOW EXACTLY WHAT THEY ARE AND MAKE A CUSTOM ORDER OF SEVERAL THOUSAND DOLLARS OF EACH ONE TO REPLICATE. And again, that would be JUST for that particular p'up, period. So, EVEN WITH REAL SPECS, BY USING TODAY'S MATERIALS, what are you actually replicating? Most probably it'll sound completely different as the one sampled.

If you ask me, I'd say the "Vintage" craze was singlehandedly invented in the early '70s by George Gruhn, that started writing a "Vintage" column on "Guitar Player Magazine" and Bingo! "Vintage" and "Hype" were so created. And of course the rest of instrument dealers immediatly jumped on the "Vintage" bandwagon like crazy! Imagine, now finally people have a reason to acquire old and beaten-up instruments, something once considered close to worthless, at prices equal or superior at new prices! Now all their unwanted inventory suddenly start to move like never before, and now people will buy instruments to COLLECT: before, instruments were used TO PLAY, now they're used to DISPLAY!!!! How crazy diabolic this concept is? He was a marketing GENIUS. He still is.

So people, it's time to look at the future, and the future is NOW: they've never been on the market so many dealers selling such good materials and parts to making p'ups in the whole history of mankind. So, carpe diem, make the best you can with what you have at hand 'cause, chances are, you have all the possibilities to make something magnificent AND be repeatable to booth. All the rest people talk about and obsess over is just the quintaessence of the "placebo effect" put to work.

HTH,

[A. Winder]

I agree, Lt. Kojak. It would be pointless to replicate something that didn't even sound good in the first place. PAFs became desirable when the only new humbuckers available were T-Tops. Things are different now and we have a lot more and better choices. It doesn't seem possible to physically recreate a PAF today anyway. However I must add that reading everything I have been able to find about old Gibson pickups has given me a good basis of knowledge for experimentation. There were certain parameters within which PAFs tended to fall. Unwinding pickups has been very informative as well. If I hadn't known that Gibson used automatic winding machines that made coils with a consistent turn per layer count I don't think I would have been able to get the results I have been getting - or perhaps it would have taken a lot longer to figure out.

[A. Winder]

I have requested that this thread be deleted, as it seems to only be an annoyance and waste of people's time, for which I am sorry. Since it is still here I may as well share some things I have learnt, in case they are of any use to anyone. Leesona wound coils I have unwound have had about 50 TPL, with a slightly sloppy wind and extra winds at the edge of the bobbin. I have experimented with various TPLs and have found that higher TPLs give a more constricted compressed sound, whereas lower TPLs sound more open and dynamic. Warmth or brightness doesn't seem to have a linear relation to TPL, I imagine because Q and the frequency of the resonant peak changes, causing an accentuation of certain frequencies not entirely dependent on the total frequency range of the pickup. I don't think that the machines Gibson used are necessary to make good sounding pickups, but it would be interesting to know what they did to see how this result works with modern materials.

I have had the best results with 5,000 - 5,150 turns, offsets of less than 50 turns, TPLs of 33 and 42, various combinations of 1010, 1018 and 1215 slugs and screws, 1018 keeper bars, and alnico IV magnets. The best sounding ones have used polyurethane coated wire, but this may be just a coincidence.