PAF Pickups & Effects of TPL

[fieldwrangler]

Back to winding patterns - found this in an old thread, I don't know if this is correct, or typical, or unusual for a PAF:

"...both were pafs. The slug and screw coils were both wound differently with different turn patterns from coil to coil and different 'shapes.' Does this mean Gibson was running coils in big batches and just 'grabbing' two at a time to make each pickup? As I recall (I'm not senile yet but I did write it down somewhere) one of the coils, I think the screw side, was narrow at the bottom and wide at the top, nearly overrunning the edge of the bobbin at the top. Turn count was pretty consistent at @ 52 turns going up and going down, but at the top only it was like the machine stalled for an extra millisecond and there would be an extra turn or two wound at the end of the travel up, hence the weird wide shape. Is this 'normal?' What would be considered normal? Can't find a lot of information online anyway dealing w/ specific characteristics. The other side, slug, was not like this at all. It looked nice and consistent, but a pattern popped out when we started unraveling the thing which was also weird in that it was between 62 and 66 turns going up towards the top of the bobbin but much faster, only about 30, going down. This was very consistent, a true pattern, for quite a while, at least as long as we were able to unwind before we almost croaked of boredom. There too, there was usually an extra turn or two at the top and bottom almost like the machine stalled or paused."

Who posted this information? It has a definite Ring of Truthiness about it; quite believable.

[A. Winder]

Who posted this information? It has a definite Ring of Truthiness about it; quite believable.

Hi, I hope the original poster of this information doesn't mind it being quoted here. In case he doesn't want to be mentioned in this thread I will say only that the post can be found in a thread titled "Dinosaur PAF tone" from 2008.

[big_teee]

All Posts and Threads in the MEF forum are fair game, as far as quoting and linking to.
http://music-electronics-forum.com/t8041/#post64358

I skimmed through the thread, and lots of speculation going on.
It appears the overall theme, was chasing the late 60s Clapton Cream tones.
That is a very hard task, since many different guitars, amps, and pedals were used.
The pickups used were only one part of the signal chain.
It seems that on pickup threads, the amp is always considered last, but IMO is the biggest part of the equation.
Interesting reading!
T
**BTW, if you google PAF winding patterns, you get this.
Some of the bobbins shown are from John Grundy's website, who is a forum member here at MEF.
https://www.google.com/search?q=PAF+...w=1366&bih=595

[Jason Rodgers]

I have requested that this thread be deleted, as it seems to only be an annoyance and waste of people's time, for which I am sorry. Since it is still here I may as well share some things I have learnt, in case they are of any use to anyone. Leesona wound coils I have unwound have had about 50 TPL, with a slightly sloppy wind and extra winds at the edge of the bobbin. I have experimented with various TPLs and have found that higher TPLs give a more constricted compressed sound, whereas lower TPLs sound more open and dynamic. Warmth or brightness doesn't seem to have a linear relation to TPL, I imagine because Q and the frequency of the resonant peak changes, causing an accentuation of certain frequencies not entirely dependent on the total frequency range of the pickup. I don't think that the machines Gibson used are necessary to make good sounding pickups, but it would be interesting to know what they did to see how this result works with modern materials.

I have had the best results with 5,000 - 5,150 turns, offsets of less than 50 turns, TPLs of 33 and 42, various combinations of 1010, 1018 and 1215 slugs and screws, 1018 keeper bars, and alnico IV magnets. The best sounding ones have used polyurethane coated wire, but this may be just a coincidence.

This is an interesting observation, and I hope that I wind enough and am able to compare closely enough to hear such contrast in TPL as a variable. This convo turned towards magnets. I'd like to hear more thoughts on TPL and tone.

[copperheadroads]

This is an interesting observation, and I hope that I wind enough and am able to compare closely enough to hear such contrast in TPL as a variable. This convo turned towards magnets. I'd like to hear more thoughts on TPL and tone.

This observation will probably come full circle many times ,going down the long "winding" road of pickups

[A. Winder]

A few more observations, and some questions:

I recently swapped out a screw coil wound at 50 TPL for one wound at 84 TPL. The difference was very noticeable. The bass was tighter, clearer, and more detailed with a crisper attack. With chords there was much better separation between strings. Overall there was more bass, more output, and more sustain. There was less "air" around notes and a somewhat denser sound. I had previously thought that a relatively high TPL like this would sound choked up and flat, but I was wrong.

I am now inclined to think that Gibson must have had two Leesona machines, and that the other one must have been set to a much higher TPL. Supposedly the Leesona used by DeArmond wound at 100 TPL, so perhaps that is closer to what the other Gibson one did.

If Gibson used a Stevens winder for PAFs, was it set to 130 TPL like on P90s, or something else?

In the case of the above quoted example from the "Dinosaur PAF" thread, it would seem that the screw coil was wound on one of the Leesonas, and the slug coil was wound on the Meteor machine.

I would be pleased if anyone could correct or expound upon any of this information.

[LtKojak]

A few more observations, and some questions:

I recently swapped out a screw coil wound at 50 TPL for one wound at 84 TPL. The difference was very noticeable. The bass was tighter, clearer, and more detailed with a crisper attack. With chords there was much better separation between strings. Overall there was more bass, more output, and more sustain. There was less "air" around notes and a somewhat denser sound. I had previously thought that a relatively high TPL like this would sound choked up and flat, but I was wrong.

I am now inclined to think that Gibson must have had two Leesona machines, and that the other one must have been set to a much higher TPL. Supposedly the Leesona used by DeArmond wound at 100 TPL, so perhaps that is closer to what the other Gibson one did.

If Gibson used a Stevens winder for PAFs, was it set to 130 TPL like on P90s, or something else?

In the case of the above quoted example from the "Dinosaur PAF" thread, it would seem that the screw coil was wound on one of the Leesonas, and the slug coil was wound on the Meteor machine.

I would be pleased if anyone could correct or expound upon any of this information.

Jon Gundry, maker of Throbak p'ups and longtime member of this Forum, has nice videos showing the old winding machines he bought from Gibson, along with some history 'bout'em.

HTH,

[big_teee]

I doublt Jon will give any TPL info.
His Vids primarily are trying to give enough info to sell pickups(Advertising), not have others make them like he does.
I may be wrong, if He wants to jump in here and give some TPL info He's welcome!
T

[Jim Darr]

...In the case of the above quoted example from the "Dinosaur PAF" thread, it would seem that the screw coil was wound on one of the Leesonas, and the slug coil was wound on the Meteor machine.

It is common wisdom that the Meteor ME301 winder(s) that Gibson got are mainly associated with T-TOP pickups (and those made after the T-TOPs) and perhaps later Decal Patent Numbers with the plain top bobbin (before the bobbin change to the embossed "T"), not P.A.F.s or early Decal Patent Numbers. These pickups were much more consistent than P.A.F.s in sound, TPL, Magnet Type, and Turn Count. It is fair to say these pickups are much more consistent than anything made earlier by Gibson. I personally like the sound of T-Tops.

[Jim Darr]

Concerning TPL.

The Leesona 102s came equipped with a fixed TPL from the factory set to 1 of 8 TPL options. To change TPL on these machines you had to change the Worm Gear and the Worm Shaft – not an easy task. If these machine came equipped with the optional “Auxiliary Gear Case” or “Auxiliary Gear Head” further TPL options were available (10.8 to 875 for serial numbers 1-944).

For the Leesona 102-B models serial number 1527 and up, and those 102 models with serial numbers 945-1526 with “Auxiliary Gearing”, TPL was available from 11 to 900 per the manual’s “Gear Train” chart.

Both winders with the optional “Auxiliary Gearing” would require a rather large number of extra gears to accommodate the stated TPL range.

It is fairly impractical to change TPLs once these Leesona machines were set up compared to the relative ease of changing TPL on the Geo Stevens, COWECOs, or Bachis. Therefore, I would say that each individual Leesona likely only produced one TPL once put into production.

Also the TPL numbers mentioned earlier in the thread can be a bit misleading. While some may hold clues to the past, keep in mind that it is really a combination of how each bobbin is wound and how they come together as one unit combined with all the other variables that go into a pickup. I make high TPL pickups and low TPL count pickups and each has its place.

Please note that there is, in theory, a maximum TPL count for a given coil height and wire diameter noted by simply taking the coil height divided by the wire diameter. Yes, you can go higher than this number but the coil becomes sloppy and uneven…some find this and the sound to be pleasant, others don’t. Personally, I like using TPL counts lower than the “max” because I find my sonic results to be more consistent…any way my two cents.

Experiment to find what works for you sonically and hopefully the market will agree.

[kayakerca]

Concerning TPL.

The Leesona 102s came equipped with a fixed TPL from the factory set to 1 of 8 TPL options. To change TPL on these machines you had to change the Worm Gear and the Worm Shaft – not an easy task. If these machine came equipped with the optional “Auxiliary Gear Case” or “Auxiliary Gear Head” further TPL options were available (10.8 to 875 for serial numbers 1-944).

For the Leesona 102-B models serial number 1527 and up, and those 102 models with serial numbers 945-1526 with “Auxiliary Gearing”, TPL was available from 11 to 900 per the manual’s “Gear Train” chart.

Both winders with the optional “Auxiliary Gearing” would require a rather large number of extra gears to accommodate the stated TPL range.

This technique has just got to be so much easier.

This is truly a very cool and informative discussion, and I apologize, but I'm weak and just couldn't help myself.

[big_teee]

This technique has just got to be so much easier. [ATTACH=CONFIG]36219[/ATTACH]

This is truly a very cool and informative discussion, and I apologize, but I'm weak and just couldn't help myself.

That's Not Vintage, you know that won't make a PAF!
Just Kiddin, Couldn't pass that up!
T

[JGundry]

For are three PAF TPL counts I can verify for PAF's (actually 4 but two of them or so close I'll call it 3). Gibson used 4 machines to wind PAF's. The TPL was set by Gibson in the most practical of manners, which meant basically, do what the winder manual says. The only exception to this is the machine that they made that has no manual. That machine breaks all the rules. There is a lot of assumptions people make about how PAF's were wound and before I had any of the actual machines I was as guilty as anyone. I think most assume every PAF was wound on a machine with a lobed cam. But of the 4 machines only one used a lobed cam. I'm doing videos to tell how the machines that wound PAF's are different. I have two of these videos done.

[Jim Darr]

This technique has just got to be so much easier. [ATTACH=CONFIG]36219[/ATTACH]

This is truly a very cool and informative discussion, and I apologize, but I'm weak and just couldn't help myself.

Yeah, I agree technology really is amazing. When I think of what has changed in my lifetime, so far, I’m astounded. As a kid I would have never even imagined that a device that could fit in my pocket would instantly connect me to the entire world. And having over 200 TV stations to pick from instead of 3-7 is mind blowing too.

Cars that drive themselves are just around the corner. Drones delivering things to my door are in the offing. Robotic surgery is truly a blessing, one that I am personally very grateful for.

But, technology can also be a double-edged sword. I remember as a kid going into Manhattan to Manny’s, Sam Ash, and all the other stores and trying out 5 or 6 Fender Strats or Teles and while each felt basically the same, 1 or 2 would feel and sound astounding to me. Same with the Gibsons, Guilds and Gretschs. What I loved was the inconsistences in each guitar. I could love one guitar while my band mate could hate it.

But technology has dramatically reduced the “once loved’ inconsistences of guitar buying. Today I can go into any store and buy a guitar even without playing it and not be surprised of the results. Technology made this possible.

I am not sure if I want a car that drives itself…I like the feel of the open road and how my car handles on curvy streets. I like going to the store and chatting with the people there when I buy something. But I suppose in a few years I’ll have a driverless car and order something while in it that will be dropped off at my door by a drone before my driverless car gets me home.

When it comes to guitars, today I don’t get the one that “calls my name” feeling any more…they all just seem to say “I’m good- buy me”. To me, some of them seem to lack a unique personality because of the consistency from one to the other. To me it was because of all those inconsistencies years ago that made that 1 or 2 special guitars and pickups sound so good, no, sound great.

CNC winding machines are great, easy to use and have predictable results. But it is the little quirks of each mechanical auto-traverse machine that make them so unique and desirable. Like how one of my three Bachis stutters a bit at one end of the layer, while the others don’t … I use that to my advantage to get a certain sound. I could program that into a CNC but would I get the same sound? Similar but different.

We guitar players seem to not like radical change. We play 50 or 60 year old guitars or new guitars mostly designed 40 plus years ago. We like vintage style pickups. We like old amps or old sounding amps. Sometimes we gravitate to something totally new.

To me, as a pickup builder, I need a consistent product from one to the other and one batch to the next. But, I prefer to wind on these old winders with all their little quirks that I can use to my sonic advantage. Yes, I’ll have to change gears and get grease and oil on my hands doing it. But I love it and love the results.

But, who knows, I just might be getting a drone delivery of the latest CNC winder in the near future. In the meantime let me try to find something to watch on TV!

[the great waldo]

Yeah, I agree technology really is amazing. When I think of what has changed in my lifetime, so far, I’m astounded. As a kid I would have never even imagined that a device that could fit in my pocket would instantly connect me to the entire world. And having over 200 TV stations to pick from instead of 3-7 is mind blowing too.

Cars that drive themselves are just around the corner. Drones delivering things to my door are in the offing. Robotic surgery is truly a blessing, one that I am personally very grateful for.

But, technology can also be a double-edged sword. I remember as a kid going into Manhattan to Manny’s, Sam Ash, and all the other stores and trying out 5 or 6 Fender Strats or Teles and while each felt basically the same, 1 or 2 would feel and sound astounding to me. Same with the Gibsons, Guilds and Gretschs. What I loved was the inconsistences in each guitar. I could love one guitar while my band mate could hate it.

But technology has dramatically reduced the “once loved’ inconsistences of guitar buying. Today I can go into any store and buy a guitar even without playing it and not be surprised of the results. Technology made this possible.

I am not sure if I want a car that drives itself…I like the feel of the open road and how my car handles on curvy streets. I like going to the store and chatting with the people there when I buy something. But I suppose in a few years I’ll have a driverless car and order something while in it that will be dropped off at my door by a drone before my driverless car gets me home.

When it comes to guitars, today I don’t get the one that “calls my name” feeling any more…they all just seem to say “I’m good- buy me”. To me, some of them seem to lack a unique personality because of the consistency from one to the other. To me it was because of all those inconsistencies years ago that made that 1 or 2 special guitars and pickups sound so good, no, sound great.

CNC winding machines are great, easy to use and have predictable results. But it is the little quirks of each mechanical auto-traverse machine that make them so unique and desirable. Like how one of my three Bachis stutters a bit at one end of the layer, while the others don’t … I use that to my advantage to get a certain sound. I could program that into a CNC but would I get the same sound? Similar but different.

We guitar players seem to not like radical change. We play 50 or 60 year old guitars or new guitars mostly designed 40 plus years ago. We like vintage style pickups. We like old amps or old sounding amps. Sometimes we gravitate to something totally new.

To me, as a pickup builder, I need a consistent product from one to the other and one batch to the next. But, I prefer to wind on these old winders with all their little quirks that I can use to my sonic advantage. Yes, I’ll have to change gears and get grease and oil on my hands doing it. But I love it and love the results.

But, who knows, I just might be getting a drone delivery of the latest CNC winder in the near future. In the meantime let me try to find something to watch on TV!

Hi Jim

I've got a cnc winder and even it has its little quirks and you have to keep an eye on it. How the bobbins are fitted differing wire gauges tension etc. I still use a cobbled up lathe with speed controller and wind by hand for my single coils. The benefit of hand winding is tension control and instant wobble adjustment although tpl is probably all over the place. As for modern cnc guitar production the cutting is by and large accurate, although look closely at the inlay reccesses on chinese guitar, also cnc is not going to make a crappy piece of wood that hasn't been properly seasoned into a decent guitar. As I have been repairing and setting up guitar new and old for the last 40 years I don't really see any great improvements in guitars as the base materials seem to be getting worse. I should be retired in 5 years or so and am curious to see what kind of garbage the major guitar factories will be producing to keep profits high and costs low. This might be a good time for all the small time makers out there to step in. The only problem is most guitarists these days wouldn't know the difference between a piece of chipboard (particle board I think it's called in the USA, ) and a piece of rosewood. When I started all those years ago the guys were talking about growth rings per inch quarter or slab sawn wood and were generally in the know. This was all without the internet. Now we have the internet hundreds know what rosewood is they've seen it on a screen or read about it from someone else that either has never seen it or seen it on the screen so on ad infinitum. Just watch out when that drone delivers your new cnc winder through the glass window as no one programmed it to check if it was open !!
Cheers

Andrew