PAF Pickups & Effects of TPL

[A. Winder]

Gibson is winding these slug bobbins with a return traverse machine which will have two separate turns per layer on each bobbin.
One pitch that is set for the preferred TPL set by Gibson and another for the quick return which is much less than the first (about 18-20 tpl) from the quick return of the feeder.

Thanks very much for this information - I'm curious to know how you know this. Do you know what effect having two different TPL numbers on one coil has?

[Stratz]

Thanks very much for this information - I'm curious to know how you know this. Do you know what effect having two different TPL numbers on one coil has?

I have repaired/unwound them and counted the turns per layer.

Not sure of the effect in technical terms but I know you need a return traverse capable machine to accomplish the same results.

What type of wire did you use on the bobbin in your picture???
Looks like formvar from where I'm sitting.

[big_teee]

I think the confusion is the term turns per layer.
IMO it would really be more of turns per pass.
If you slowly make 12 turns on a paf bobbin and stop, then there would lots of gaps.
so on the next pass, you probably fill in the gaps on the same layer?
And you do that for each layer.
Anyway it don't matter, like I said I was trying to make logical sense out of it.
So in my mind the 12tpl on a bobbin channel that is only .215-.225 deep, makes no sense.
But, If you guys like it I like it!
Have fun with it!
T

[A. Winder]

If You look at his picture, I can see 50-60 turns, or so across the bobbin.
Are thes turns on the same layer, or are they on different layers?
I was just trying to make sense out of it.
So Logically if you put 12 turns per layer then when you go back the other direction, then wire must be going between the turns on the previous layer.
If you follow the math and keep the layers separate, then we would do this.
416.666 x .00268 =1.25424 inches on each side of the bobbin core.
So that proves to me that there is more than 12 turns per layer.
I don't have a auto winder with traverse, and I don't have the bobbin to count turns.
But, the math don't lie?
So someone explain how it fits on there?
T

Hi T,

I can't explain how it fits on there, other than to assure you that it does. I don't think the turns are falling between previous turns, because the pitch of the turns is so great that they must cross over each other.

Edit: I admit some turns could fall entirely between turns from previous layers, but not all of them would.

[big_teee]

Hi T,

I can't explain how it fits on there, other than to assure you that it does. I don't think the turns are falling between previous turns, because the pitch of the turns is so great that they must cross over each other.

Good enough for me!
Keep up the fine job!
T

[A. Winder]

I have repaired/unwound them and counted the turns per layer.

Not sure of the effect in technical terms but I know you need a return traverse capable machine to accomplish the same results.

What type of wire did you use on the bobbin in your picture???
Looks like formvar from where I'm sitting.

Thanks! The wire is 42awg single build polyurethane from Remington Industries.

[jack briggs]

Hi Winder

Put an alnico 3 magnet in a humbucker and you'll get a fairly thin sound. Hand winding will also give you some opennes although not vintage correct. Used to only wind by hand but it was a bit of a lottery as to how the pickups sounded, great for single coils. I did invest with a cnc winder from cnc dudez to make humbuckers which helps to keep consistency. I am still surprised as to how much difference changes in wire gauge from different batches make, you can see it in the size of the coil for a given amount of turns and differing resistance readings. Trying to find the time to be methodical in testing wire tends to defeat me. I'm still trying to figure out the secret of making a late 70S early 80's mudbucker I still can't figure out how Gibson managed to make them so muddy sounding?

Cheers
Andrew

Really????
Every time I sub an A3 fully charged for anything else I get more bass and mids and smoother highs. Inductance is highest with A3 than any other, I suspect due to the higher iron content of the alloy. A5 and A8 have lowest iron, give lowest inductance readings at 120hz and 1k hz, and are brightest sounding.

Are you sure you're using real A3s? Some vendors are supplying "A3s" that have cobalt in their makeup, hence - not really A3.

YMMV.


cheers,

[big_teee]

I agree that magnets vary a lot by manufacture.
I mainly use A2s with vintage style humbuckers, and they seem to vary a lot too.
It may be Placebo, but too me, the Magnetic hold brand A2 bar magnets I get from Shea, sound better than other A2s I've tried.
They cost a little more, but in my mind, they are worth it.
A3s always sound a little dark, and weak for my taste.
Use what you like!
T

[the great waldo]

Really????
Every time I sub an A3 fully charged for anything else I get more bass and mids and smoother highs. Inductance is highest with A3 than any other, I suspect due to the higher iron content of the alloy. A5 and A8 have lowest iron, give lowest inductance readings at 120hz and 1k hz, and are brightest sounding.

Are you sure you're using real A3s? Some vendors are supplying "A3s" that have cobalt in their makeup, hence - not really A3.

YMMV.


cheers,

Hi Jack
I was using sensmag alnico 3's maybe i'll check out some mojo 3's that i've got somewhere. The sensmag ones seem to give a fairly low gauss reading. The humbuckers don't sound bad just a little low in output and bright.

Cheers
Andrew

[jack briggs]

Hi Jack
I was using sensmag alnico 3's maybe i'll check out some mojo 3's that i've got somewhere. The sensmag ones seem to give a fairly low gauss reading. The humbuckers don't sound bad just a little low in output and bright.

Cheers
Andrew

Andrew,

I certainly agree with the low gauss readings. Maybe I misunderstood your term "thin". You certainly will see a little lower output with A3, but tonally I hear a fatter sound, though perhaps a little less definition on bass notes. Mojo A3s have sounded pretty good, IMHO.


cheers,

[the great waldo]

Hi Jack

The Al3 pups I made sounded bright and clear compared to AL5 and 2 Funny thing with al2 is that they seem to sound louder than Al5 but very warm, (I think this could be perceived loudness because of the fat bass) Al5 seems more aggressive with Al5 unoriented a little sweeter. All this stuff is a bit like making an omelette slugs screws and wire add to taste.

Cheers

Andrew

[A. Winder]

Hi, I've tried alnico III from 3 different sources, and two of them have a thin, bright sound, and the other one has a thick, warm sound. They all have a harder sound than alnico II, but have less bass and treble extension than alnico IV and V. The same magnet seems to react differently in different pickups sometimes.

Back to winding patterns - found this in an old thread, I don't know if this is correct, or typical, or unusual for a PAF:

"...both were pafs. The slug and screw coils were both wound differently with different turn patterns from coil to coil and different 'shapes.' Does this mean Gibson was running coils in big batches and just 'grabbing' two at a time to make each pickup? As I recall (I'm not senile yet but I did write it down somewhere) one of the coils, I think the screw side, was narrow at the bottom and wide at the top, nearly overrunning the edge of the bobbin at the top. Turn count was pretty consistent at @ 52 turns going up and going down, but at the top only it was like the machine stalled for an extra millisecond and there would be an extra turn or two wound at the end of the travel up, hence the weird wide shape. Is this 'normal?' What would be considered normal? Can't find a lot of information online anyway dealing w/ specific characteristics. The other side, slug, was not like this at all. It looked nice and consistent, but a pattern popped out when we started unraveling the thing which was also weird in that it was between 62 and 66 turns going up towards the top of the bobbin but much faster, only about 30, going down. This was very consistent, a true pattern, for quite a while, at least as long as we were able to unwind before we almost croaked of boredom. There too, there was usually an extra turn or two at the top and bottom almost like the machine stalled or paused."

[A. Winder]

I know this is slightly off-topic, but does anyone know how Alnico III from '50s P90s and PAFs compares to that made today? Is the old Alnico III closer to the warmer thicker variety, or the thinner brighter one, or does the old one vary as well? Thanks.

[big_teee]

I don't know about the A3s that much except all I've tried are weak and darker tonally, especially with a metal cover IMO.
I dig A3 Rod magnets, but never cared that much for the A3 bars I've tried.
Have you tried the A2s from Magnetic hold?
I like those better than anything I've tried for vintage pickups.
Mojos magnets come in second in my book.
YMMV,
T

[A. Winder]

I don't know about the A3s that much except all I've tried are weak and darker tonally, especially with a metal cover IMO.
I dig A3 Rod magnets, but never cared that much for the A3 bars I've tried.
Have you tried the A2s from Magnetic hold?
I like those better than anything I've tried for vintage pickups.
Mojos magnets come in second in my book.
YMMV,
T

Hi T, I have tried the Mojo A2, which is good, but not the Magnetic Hold, which I would like to try. Thanks for the suggestion.