Can we talk about ceramic magnets?

[LtKojak]

Hi guys!

looking at the specs listed in all p'ups, when AlNiCo is used, it's always stated what it is, A2, A5, A8, etc. But when ceramic magnets are used, it just says "ceramic". Why is that, if there are at least as many types of ceramic grades as there are in AlNiCo?

Looking at the SD p'up line, you'll see that they have A LOT of ceramic p'ups... specially single coil guitar and most bass' p'ups are ceramic.

Ceramic, yes, but what ceramic? Does it really matter? Or only one grade is being used in p'up making? It seems to be used a lot more in bass p'up making... is there a specific reason based on tone or they just help to keep the revenues from sales higher, being cheaper to produce?

Inquirying minds would like to know... I'm all ears!

Yours very truly,

Pepe aka Lt. Kojak
Milano, Italy

[salvarsan]

Originally Posted by LtKojak

Hi guys!

looking at the specs listed in all p'ups, when AlNiCo is used, it's always stated what it is, A2, A5, A8, etc. But when ceramic magnets are used, it just says "ceramic". Why is that, if there are at least as many types of ceramic grades as there are in AlNiCo?

There are a few basic types listed in the Permanent Magnetic Materials Specification MMPA-0100-00.
Document is at
http://www.intl-magnetics.org/publications.php

There are Ceramic 1,3,5,8 with 5 being the most common.

Looking at the SD p'up line, you'll see that they have A LOT of ceramic p'ups... specially single coil guitar and most bass' p'ups are ceramic.

Ceramic, yes, but what ceramic? Does it really matter? Or only one grade is being used in p'up making?

It matters. It is unexplored (or unremarked)
territory.

-drh

[David Schwab]

5 and 8 are about the only ones used for pickups as far as I can tell.

[Stan H]

Originally Posted by David Schwab

5 and 8 are about the only ones used for pickups as far as I can tell.

Is there any way to actually know which one you are getting?

[David King]

You've got to ask. Allstar only has C8, Rob Paar claims that from an industrial point of view C5 and C8 are indistinguishable so C5 has dropped off the menu.

[LtKojak]

Originally Posted by David King

Rob Paar claims that from an industrial point of view C5 and C8 are indistinguishable so C5 has dropped off the menu.

Indistinguishable... how? Tonewise? Productionwise? Pricewise?

It's call just "ceramic" because for certain reasons there's only one grade available, and it's C8?

Pepe aka Lt. Kojak
Milano, Italy

[jonson]

they are all available if you buy from source. Arnolds is agood choice.

http://www.arnoldmagnetics.com/produ...e_catalogs.htm

[David Schwab]

Originally Posted by LtKojak

Indistinguishable... how? Tonewise? Productionwise? Pricewise?

It's call just "ceramic" because for certain reasons there's only one grade available, and it's C8?

C8 is stronger, so it has to sound a bit different. You can get any grade you want. The other grades are not oriented however.

Ceramic magnet material is extremely brittle and can chip or break if dropped on a hard surface, or if allowed to ?jump at? an attracting object. Handle with care. The weakest grade of ceramic material is grade 1, which is typically non-oriented. Grades 5 and 8 are oriented ceramic material. Grade 8 is the strongest ceramic magnet material available (Refer to properties chart below). When making magnetic assemblies with ceramic, it is typically easier for production purposes to magnetize the product after assembly.

http://www.allmagnetics.com/ceramic.htm

The one time I spoke to Rob Parr he did want to sell me C8, which is probably what I would have ordered anyway.

I think C5 is equally common though... I have 50 ceramic bars here (not from Rob) and I bet they are C5.

Not sure how to tell though.

[LtKojak]

Originally Posted by salvarsan
It is unexplored (or unremarked) territory.

This answer makes a lot more sense to me...

Pepe aka Lt. Kojak
Milano, Italy

[David King]

Ceramics find their way into many more bass pickups than guitar pickups. They can sound "cool" in bass pickup but tend to sound "cheap" in guitar pickups. This might explain why the guitar folks shy away from them. Ceramics probably can be used effectively in guitar pickups but why bother when Alnico apparently gets us closer without the fuss. They certainly are less expensive which is partially why they connote "cheap" sounding.

[spud1950]

From having a few guitar ceramic magnet guitar pickups I notice that there seems to be two distinct types,as far as appearance goes.One type is very light gray in color, having a somewhat rough surface.The other type is much darker in color,almost black,and has a very smooth surface.Does this indicate a difference in quality that may also effect the tone of a pickup?

[David Schwab]

Originally Posted by David King

Ceramics probably can be used effectively in guitar pickups but why bother when Alnico apparently gets us closer without the fuss. They certainly are less expensive which is partially why they connote "cheap" sounding.

Closer to what? A lot of guitar pickups have ceramics, and sound fine. Ceramics have a harder magnetic field, so they are a good choice for louder pickups. They work well with steel poles which warm up the tone. A lot of those cheap plastic bobbin Fender Strat pickups sound good.

Bill Lawrence uses a lot of ceramic magnets, and of course Alembic. Those aren't cheap sounding pickups.

The reason they sound good on bass pickups is they tend to be brighter.

But they come in handy when you want low self inductance.

It's all about how you design the pickup. You need to design around the magnet and core. There's no fuss at all.

The problem with really cheap pickups is they use crappy ceramic magnets. The Squire pickups with the single magnet facing the poles is a good example. It's a VERY weak magnet, and you end up with a dull, lifeless tone.