My HM fender- poorly.

[Helmholtz]

Now Ive got 2.2mm on the low E, and nearly 3mm on the top E

What happens if you lower treble string action to 2mm?

[Sea Chief]

What happens if you lower treble string action to 2mm?

Bad buzzing. I tried setting all to 2mm @ 17th to go from there. All not happy, really bad buzzing lower 3 wounds. So Ive reverted back more or less to as I had them.

The top E is sort of sounding like a sitar though, open, not fretted. I still get a tiny bit of buzz on it & its 2.5mm. The low E is still a bit buzzy even 2.2mm.

Would putting a fraction -more- bow in the neck, a bit more of a gap in middle to strings.. help the buzzing at all do you think?

I wonder, did we rule out a twisted neck, or not yet-?

[vintagekiki]

I wonder, did we rule out a twisted neck, or not yet-?

pdf64 is initiate the twisted neck question at the beginning of the thread (#3).
https://music-electronics-forum.com/forum/instrumentation/guitar-tech/915965-my-hm-fender-poorly#post915975

[Helmholtz]

Would putting a fraction -more- bow in the neck, a bit more of a gap in middle to strings.. help the buzzing at all do you think?

No.

I wonder, did we rule out a twisted neck, or not yet-?

Unlikely if relief below all strings is about same.


When an open string buzzes more than when fretted, it's nut slot is too low/deep.
For a more precise test, press down the string at fret 3 or 4 and check for a tiny gap between fretted string and fret 1. If the string touches fret 1, the nut is too low.

[Sea Chief]

christ these two gtrs (Ive set both same) are totally unplayable like this- way worse than before. I just dont understand it.

I cannot believe this 0.009 relief and 2mm string height @ 17th. It just makes no sense on these gtrs. I now have my tele saddles maxed right up too doing this (so now I dont think the neck is wrong on the strat at all). The neck -must- have to have some proper relief is all I can think (like at least 1mm) then the string H lowered, IE back to how I had originally.

Electrics are a total nightmare. I spend at least half the time tuning the damn things as playing them, each & every time, as the tuning heads always seem a bit slippy &/ or the thin strings just cant stay in tune for more than a few minutes, let alone this setting them up. an acoustic- just pick up & bloody play it.

[Sea Chief]

No.



Unlikely if relief below all strings is about same.


When an open string buzzes more than when fretted, it's nut slot is too low/deep.
For a more precise test, press down the string at fret 3 or 4 and check for a tiny gap between fretted string and fret 1. If the string touches fret 1, the nut is too low.

Ok yes I understand this idea. Will do later. What's thrown me is repeating the set up process exactly, on my other gtr (ok in retrospect I shouldnt if it was just about ok to play as it was! if it aint broke don't fix it etc).. I get the same high saddles, same big string above the gtr body, and its far worse to play than it was!

omg. ok Im gonna set the strat back to the very high setting we got to 2.2mm above 17th fret, high E about 2.5mm. And evaluate. At the mo I can only play it capo'd.. which yes points to the nut set too low: but its the factory nut: the lacquer just spills onto it you can tell, the high E yes Id think can cut into its slot over time bc its so thin, creating buzz.. but I get buzz all the way up the frets on this string (like a sitar sound). The other strings can't really all uniformly cut deeper into the nut, especially the lowest wounds.

I'll have to reset the tele back to try find how I had it (1mm+ of relief, strings down again to somewhere 'normal' in saddle height). This set up definitely doesn't work on this gtr. Unless the strings are fkd. I did have them tuned 1 tone up I found, just over time I must have kept weaking the tuning without checking I was drifting up.

[Sea Chief]

Helmholtz hi thanks for all your help btw Helmholtz, your patience is appreciated. As you can tell I'm very rusty at this setting up!

What I just confirmed, is on my telecaster (a japan decent copy afaict from v good neck lacquer/ mfr unknown) having 1mm, even more maybe, of neck relief, & strings down even 'somewhere near' where I had them, an average string action lets say.. is vastly better, for this gtr, than setting to optimal figures suggested.

So set up must depend entirely (and hugely so) on the neck/ gtr and can vary. Is this something you have ever found? 'perfect settings' work on one gtr, 'non-perfect settings' work on another-? or maybe you are used to much better gtrs than me, but fender japan necks -are- meant to be very good.

[Helmholtz]

The settings I proposed assume correct nut height and level frets (especially no raised tongue). These things I check and take care of before doing the final setup.
I've seen low nuts on new factory guitars.

[Sea Chief]

But if I repeat exactly same process on another gtr, not a partscaster, & get same huge gap under strings.. & I see both necks are the same height relative to bodies, & both straight relative to their bodies.. I can shift away from considering the tongue is raised.

The nut aspect is only relevant to the 1st fret. If my buzzing happens the same capo'ing 1st fret.. I can shift away from considering the nut (for this exercise).

If the buzzing is uniform & not tied to any 'areas' on the neck.. I can consider the frets as acceptably flat relative to each other.

[Helmholtz]

But if I repeat exactly same process on another gtr, not a partscaster, & get same huge gap under strings.. & I see both necks are the same height relative to bodies, & both straight relative to their bodies.. I can shift away from considering the tongue is raised.

If both guitars have excessive string to body distance, both share the same issue: Too shallow neck pockets for their necks.

A "raised tongue" or "tongue hump" is not the same as a high fretboard.
It rather means a relative upward bow of the portion of the neck that's supported by the body, which can't be counteracted by the trussrod.
If a neck having this problem is set for low relief, it actually gets a backbow for its major part which increases string buzz.
(I just had this issue with a new Fender USA Strat. Could cure it with careful fret levelling. But sometimes it requires pulling the frets and levelling the fretboard.)

As relief and action settings are interdependent, something like a tongue hump will mess up settings.

For a more detailled analysis I would have to inspect your guitars myself and preferably also see you playing.


I can only state that after eliminating neck issues, the settings and tolerances I proposed always worked best for me and my customers.

[Helmholtz]

See here for an explanation of a "rising tongue":
https://www.electricherald.com/fix-fret-buzz/

[vintagekiki]

https://www.electricherald.com/

https://www.electricherald.com/guitar-neck-profile-guide/

https://www.electricherald.com/downloads/Fender-Neck-Profiles.pdf
^{Fender Neck Profiles - 1st Fret / 11th Fret}
https://www.electricherald.com/guitar-neck-pitch-angle-guide/

https://www.pdfdrive.com/guitar-player-repair-guide-how-to-set-up-maintain-and-repair-electrics-and-acoustics-e156873312.html
^{Guitar Player Repair Guide}

[Sea Chief]

See here for an explanation of a "rising tongue":
https://www.electricherald.com/fix-fret-buzz/

I think a rising tongue is very slightly visible though? its a useful page of info for sure/ I'm bookmarking it.

Looking down both gtr frets from headstock right down, everything looks hunky dory. Not a jiffy of a squiffy neck. If I compare the low E side looking down the edge just below string I see a slight bow in each neck, and slightly less of a bow on the high E side (almost flat).

If both are the same, Id assume its the added tension of the fatter strings 'pulling' up a fraction more this side. I wonder if anyone knows if that's true/ expected.

[Helmholtz]

Not much difference between bass and treble side: http://web.daddario.com/StringTensio...der?set=EXL120

[Helmholtz]

https://www.electricherald.com/
https://www.pdfdrive.com/guitar-player-repair-guide-how-to-set-up-maintain-and-repair-electrics-and-acoustics-e156873312.html
^{Guitar Player Repair Guide}

Dan Erlewine's guitar repair books are THE reference.