Vol knob basics.

[Sea Chief]

You understand a frequency response chart, right?
ie a flat horizontal line will be an even balanced tone. If it goes up or down at the right end, the tone will be brighter or duller. Up or down at the left end will be bassier or thinner.

So, the charts are the frequency response of the guitar’s signal.
The different control arrangements / settings elicit a different frequency response, and hence a different pink line trace on the chart.

I’m reminded of when I first started trying to play guitar, and just couldn’t grasp the concept of what was meant by the ‘key’ that a song was in.

pdf.. although I'm I would say a proficient player, the concept of 'key' still eludes me. No I don't think I understand a frequency response chart.. but, I can I would say understand 'a blurry outline' to it. As to why there is dB involved in a tone knob pink lines.. is still not apparant though.

Thanks SC

[Dave H]

I knew the 3 graphs, labelled differently, are there to represent the different types of pot, this is of course understood (because labelled so). But I cannot tell difference between their "many strange pink lines" therefore 'they seem to all intents & purposes, indistinguishable to me'

Have a look at the pink lines below the right hand (3kHz) peak for the Linear taper pot (first plot) Can you see how they are all cramped up together below the peak? This means that the effect of the tone pot is all cramped up at the clockwise end. Now look carefully at the Audio taper pot (second plot) Can you see how the pink lines are more spread out? This means that the effect of the pot is more spread out over its range. To understand the other plots you just have to compare the spacing of the pink lines. The more evenly spaced out they are the more even the operation of the control will be.

[Sea Chief]

Have a look at the pink lines below the right hand (3kHz) peak for the Linear taper pot (first plot) Can you see how they are all cramped up together below the peak? This means that the effect of the tone pot is all cramped up at the clockwise end. Now look carefully at the Audio taper pot (second plot) Can you see how the pink lines are more spread out? This means that the effect of the pot is more spread out over its range. To understand the other plots you just have to compare the spacing of the pink lines. The more evenly spaced out they are the more even the operation of the control will be.

Hi Dave H.. right that's more understandable. I'm getting somewhere with this, thanks. Will go over it today.

[Chuck H]

[USER="33165"]One thing I cant understand, is if we're talking tone pots, why the vertical axis' denomination is in dB. Vol knob, yes I understand this would be used vertically, because vol is relative to dB. But a tone pot.. has no bearing on volume, just the high & low frequencies differ.

Maybe it would help to consider tone controls as volume controls for a specific frequency range. Which is what they are. Turning a tone control does not leave the signal output averaged. With passive tone controls, which would include guitar tone pots, there IS an actual reduction in signal when turning down. It's just specific to the high frequency range. So it's still a "volume control" that just turns down the higher frequencies instead of all frequencies. Hence the frequency markers at the bottom of the graphs.

Pete's indication of frequency charts is a good one. I would even equate it to devices like graphic equalizers that use slide controls. Being a musician that has played in bands you've surely seen some of these. The arrangement of the sliders plots the frequency. The charts posted do it just like that. Except that each line is it's own plot and represents each dial number on the tone pot. Imagine the image below is a graphic EQ set for one line on the posted graphs (10 on the tone knob in this case)

[Fluoroscope 5000]

Good explanations guys. I feel confident that Sea Chief will grasp this and the domino effect will clear up things from there. BTW, premade Sommer Spirit LLX cables are seriously overpriced. I got my cable and HiCon plugs cheap here:
http://store.haveinc.com/p-62046-som...-per-foot.aspx

Since you can get a 4kHz+ peak on either pickup with a 10' cable and 500k pots (into a 1M Ohm preamp input), you might consider 1-1.2nF for the tone knob cap on the bridge pickup to get a 1.5~2kHz peak on the tone knob from 6~1 (assuming a 10-1 numbering, like a Strat). I have it on several guitars and it's a very useful option if you don't need a really dark bridge pickup tone. The darkest/smoothest tone is at ~4 on my tone knobs, but there are several really nice spots from 6 down. I find it gets into P90 territory at ~2.5. Those spots may be a bit lower on the knob for 500k pots.

All you do is rewire the tone pot so each cap goes from the selector switch lug for each pickup directly to the tone pot input, and wire the tone pot output to ground. I also ground the other outer tone pot lug to keep the peak from getting too steep. I get my caps and resistors cheap from BYOC.com in the states, but there may be better options overseas. Any cap type will do in an electric guitar as long as the value is within 10% of my recommendation.

[Sea Chief]

You understand a frequency response chart, right?
ie a flat horizontal line will be an even balanced tone. If it goes up or down at the right end, the tone will be brighter or duller. Up or down at the left end will be bassier or thinner.

So, the charts are the frequency response of the guitar’s signal.
The different control arrangements / settings elicit a different frequency response, and hence a different pink line trace on the chart.

I’m reminded of when I first started trying to play guitar, and just couldn’t grasp the concept of what was meant by the ‘key’ that a song was in.

Chuck H It was assumed a few posts back I understood a 'frequency chart' mentioned here by pdf (just googled > I see a myriad of different incomprehensible diagrams) but I've never heard of one. Up or down at the end.. I must therefore have to visualise the Hz axis now vertical instead-?? And right there.. I'm lost again, because the pink lines go 'down at the end' (but the Hz is on the lower axis). If pdf can't do it any simpler for me: I'm in big trouble.

I can vaguely comprehend/ visualise the tone pot 'turning down or up' various aspects, a sense then of the relevance of the dB LHS axis is achieved. But one step further & imagining lots of inciments within a tone pot, relaying them into writing or a chart, & I'm adrift again.

I'm really sorry chaps I just can't grasp much here. I can see on a graphic eq pedal the buttons look like the graph (moreso they look like the bold 'simplified' chart in a post just above) if you were to position them like so. But I cannot correleate this to the pink lines if there are multiples involved (the only graphs I encountered at school, the only place Ive ever 'done graphs', had one line only/ two tops). As to 'resonant peak' I can see a hump, but what this signifies/ its relevance is still not understood, & it seems to be a core thing running through this subject: so if it eludes me as to what on earth it is, I'm really up against it.

Trying to link these facets together, is like giving a techical lego set to a toddler, without a picture. A stupid toddler with cross eyes, mental deficiencies (& just had a lengthy lobotomy). You are very kind to explain, & more vague outlines -are- forming.. but at the same time I'm also getting increacingly lost!

thank you SC

[Chuck H]

Again, the significance of the hump (resonant peak) is that it's a frequency shaping phenomenon that is a consequence of the circuit and has a characteristic tone. It's not important to understand it more than that. Maybe part of what's confusing you is why the resonant peak is there and then not there? This is also a consequence of the circuits as they are altered by adjustment of the tone or volume controls. And you really don't need to understand it more than that.

The graphics and concepts of the charts are so simple that I have to wonder what mechanism in your mind is preventing you from, or even disallowing you to understand them.?.

I will try ONE MORE THING and see if a light comes on for you.

On the repost of the final graph below I have expanded the info for the "tone knob at 5" designation in green by continuing the green line and relating it to the scales left and bottom. This is EXACTLY what the charts are there to tell you. At tone knob position 5 your guitars signal will have -22dB of amplitude at the frequency of 3kHz.

Why does that mean anything? By it's self it doesn't. But it takes on meaning when, for example, you want to compare the amplitude at 3kHz with the tone knob at 5 to the amplitude at 3kHz with the tone knob at 6. Or 2 or the other charts, etc. Or if you want to compare a different frequency between different settings or the circuits represented by each of the charts. By mentally visualizing the green lines I've added to this graph you can compare results for any of the settings or circuits discussed. And that DOES have meaning. So now the concept of -22dB at 3kHz with the tone knob at 5 is no longer just meaningless jargon without context.

[Chuck H]

JSYK this is my last attempt to explain it. That said, I'll reiterate that I have come up with a circuit that will give you more user intuitive control with your tone knob. If you will post a photo of your guitars electronics I will redraw them in diagram with the circuit I propose so that you can physically see and implement/copy the new and improved tone control circuit.

[Helmholtz]

As the OP says he likes bright, I wonder if he actually uses his tone control(s).

Many players including myself never touch the tone knobs on a single coil guitar.
In that case tone pot taper and tone cap value don't matter, but a 500k tone pot will preserve more treble than a 250k pot.

A 500k vol pot will sound brighter than a 250k vol pot when fully on, but will loose more treble than a 250k when rolling back.
A 250k vol pot rarely needs a treble bleed cap/resistor arrangement, while it makes sense with a 500k vol pot.

BTW, some vintage Teles used a 1M vol pot with a 1nF treble cap.

[Chuck H]

BTW, some vintage Teles used a 1M vol pot with a 1nF treble cap.

That's a piece of vintage info I actually know about. And you can bet that it's common knowledge for guitarists in Nashville where it ain't got a thang if it ain't got that twang (that might be too "American" a reference for you but I'll stand by it)

[Helmholtz]

That's a piece of vintage info I actually know about. And you can bet that it's common knowledge for guitarists in Nashville where it ain't got a thang if it ain't got that twang (that might be too "American" a reference for you but I'll stand by it)

Well, I thought that info would fit in here.

Main message is, the higher vol (and tone) pot resistance the more twang, but the more need for some treble compensation when rolling back.

[Fluoroscope 5000]

I took it upon myself to record a video showing how the tone knob and treble bleed would work for the TS Tele pickup set. I just did it on the fly in one take but deleted most of my hemming and hawing in the voiceover. I think I explained everything well enough, but feel free to ask questions if something isn't clear:
https://youtu.be/opu0T1c_94Q

[Chuck H]

I took it upon myself to record a video showing how the tone knob and treble bleed would work for the TS Tele pickup set. I just did it on the fly in one take but deleted most of my hemming and hawing in the voiceover. I think I explained everything well enough,..

Indeed! Good video. And FWIW I used to do something very similar with a 2.2n tone cap for an upper mid boost groove on a couple of my guitars. Works a treat and I liked it but since "I" was doing it with humbuckers I was using it as more of a gimmick. Not having the tone cap switchable I had lost the ability to get into that "horn like quality" you mentioned. I hadn't before considered it for getting a more middy quality to the tone of single coils. Thanks for the video

[Sea Chief]

I took it upon myself to record a video showing how the tone knob and treble bleed would work for the TS Tele pickup set. I just did it on the fly in one take but deleted most of my hemming and hawing in the voiceover. I think I explained everything well enough, but feel free to ask questions if something isn't clear:
https://youtu.be/opu0T1c_94Q

Major thanks kind sir for this! The help has been more than fantastic. As to understanding it.. about 5%, which I know will induce groans across the Atlantic like foghorns. But its 5% more than an hour ago!

What I can gather from it, is its a very intricate detailing of possible additions, via caps, onto my tone pot, & onto pickups (I had no idea a cap was ever put on a pickup!). The suggestions I could follow, only by way of just soldering one idea on & using my ears. As I find it hard to distinguish between two speakers (say in a comparison demo) the likelihood of me actually discerning a difference though could be unlikely. Thats not to say your suggestions arent better, fantastic etc. But Im not anywhere near being in a position to really know what difference I hear, or knowing one sounds probably better than another. Its like a lesson thats at the end of next term of next year.. Im on week 2 of of the first term, a year before! (& having major problems).

That's very different to having a linear vol knob vs a log one. Now I can distinguish/ hear a big difference between these, hence my thread. Basics the word was chosen, because I just find the technical detail so hard. I can only cope with the very basics: my tone knob seems same same then all the range seems bunched into latter half of knob. This is all I can understand. Change to a more even 'scope'.. can someone suggest how? etc. I don't- think- your clip was to do with this avenue: but for all I know: it could very well be exactly the intent of the clip. THAT is how lost I am.

But I do try to understand the info, as its been so kindly put up for me.. & Id love to be able to understand it, & yes I should perhaps be able to, Im uni educated etc. But something fundamental is not clicking, like a core switch that remains unflipped. It might be Andy Worhol for you, perhaps.

But way prior to this 'final chapter' of actually choosing a preferred cap addition to shape a preferred tone I think the clip was about (a chapter I didnt know was even on the syllabus!) I was still stuck firm trying to understand a frequency graph/ what the significance is of this mystery (sorry it remains so) hump & if I still cant grasp this, I can only understand 5% of the clip. If alot of your info referrs repeatedly to this hump like a central hub facet you must understand or all is lost.. then after watching 10x I still cannot progress further, than understanding 5%. It sits resolutely like some discombobulated alien camel in my mind.


So in a year I might be able to come back to it. Its very like trying trying, but coming to the realisation that you are just fundamentally on the wrong degree course for eg, its that big realisation this subject will not, regrettably & unfortunately click. But I can still solder a 22nf cap on, why, because intelligent folk like you say its a good idea for my pickups.

Thanks chaps SC

[Sea Chief]

Well, I thought that info would fit in here.

Main message is, the higher vol (and tone) pot resistance the more twang, but the more need for some treble compensation when rolling back.

Thats basics I can grapple with. As I have 500k pots both now, I guess that bridge is crossed.

To be honest with a 680pf cap on my vol pot, I think it might go a little too bright rolling back. But it might be spot on. Im just not experienced enough in terms of ever having played a multitude of teles ( ive only played 4, 3 only with single coils).. to know what to expect, or if one is 'right' and another 'wrong', one ok & the next ' better' in terms of tone pot useage. I dont think I ever turned the tone down, bar this one I have now.. as I could never hear anything but 'darker/ muddier' doing so, so actually not only had no use for it other than turned fully up, but also no idea why its even there at all! ( i still dont on the whole, if they sound right turned up, & simply wrong turned down.. but thats just me I guess).

I do use mine now, just to take the edge of the bridge p/u.. But I cant see any other reason anyone would use the tone knob on a tele than do similarly: I mean turn down the tone on the already quite dark neck p/u? this seems preposterous to me, an unuseable dark mush ( why would anyone want their tele t9 sound crap like this? its only useable this p/u alone, if the tone is max.. surely).

Thanks SC