Vol knob basics.

[Fluoroscope 5000]

Major thanks kind sir for this! The help has been more than fantastic. As to understanding it.. about 5%, which I know will induce groans across the Atlantic like foghorns. But its 5% more than an hour ago!

What I can gather from it, is its a very intricate detailing of possible additions, via caps, onto my tone pot, & onto pickups (I had no idea a cap was ever put on a pickup!). The suggestions I could follow, only by way of just soldering one idea on & using my ears. As I find it hard to distinguish between two speakers (say in a comparison demo) the likelihood of me actually discerning a difference though could be unlikely. Thats not to say your suggestions arent better, fantastic etc. But Im not anywhere near being in a position to really know what difference I hear, or knowing one sounds probably better than another. Its like a lesson thats at the end of next term of next year.. Im on week 2 of of the first term, a year before! (& having major problems).

That's very different to having a linear vol knob vs a log one. Now I can distinguish/ hear a big difference between these, hence my thread. Basics the word was chosen, because I just find the technical detail so hard. I can only cope with the very basics: my tone knob seems same same then all the range seems bunched into latter half of knob. This is all I can understand. Change to a more even 'scope'.. can someone suggest how? etc. I don't- think- your clip was to do with this avenue: but for all I know: it could very well be exactly the intent of the clip. THAT is how lost I am.

But I do try to understand the info, as its been so kindly put up for me.. & Id love to be able to understand it, & yes I should perhaps be able to, Im uni educated etc. But something fundamental is not clicking, like a core switch that remains unflipped. It might be Andy Worhol for you, perhaps.

But way prior to this 'final chapter' of actually choosing a preferred cap addition to shape a preferred tone I think the clip was about (a chapter I didnt know was even on the syllabus!) I was still stuck firm trying to understand a frequency graph/ what the significance is of this mystery (sorry it remains so) hump & if I still cant grasp this, I can only understand 5% of the clip. If alot of your info referrs repeatedly to this hump like a central hub facet you must understand or all is lost.. then after watching 10x I still cannot progress further, than understanding 5%. It sits resolutely like some discombobulated alien camel in my mind.


So in a year I might be able to come back to it. Its very like trying trying, but coming to the realisation that you are just fundamentally on the wrong degree course for eg, its that big realisation this subject will not, regrettably & unfortunately click. But I can still solder a 22nf cap on, why, because intelligent folk like you say its a good idea for my pickups.

Thanks chaps SC

I'd watch just a small portion of the video at a time and repeat it until you understand it. Then go to the next portion. I don't know how else to help.

Yes, caps can be wired directly from the pickup switch lugs to a pot so that different values can be used on each pickup. The values sum when the pickups are in parallel. I recommended a standard 0.022mF/22nF/22,000pF cap for the neck and maybe a 1.2nF cap for the bridge to give it a strong 1.5~2kHz peak when the tone knob is down below 6, which sounds awesome with some overdrive. I also recommend the low capacitance Sommer LLX cable for a more detailed and bell-like high-end with the 500k pots into a 1M Ohm input.

[vintagekiki]

Do not believe check

Frequency independent volume control.
The tone color remains the same regardless of the position of the volume control potentiometer.
It is mounted "in the air" directly on the potentiometer of volume control.

[Chuck H]

The tone color remains the same regardless of the position of the volume control potentiometer.

It should be noted, If you actually want your guitar to sound like a normal guitar you'd need to make that switchable. I just ran this circuit through the sims and it affects the stock, full up tone badly. It flattens the audio taper of the pot. It also suffers a notable degree of frequency and peak amplitude error not so different from other "treble bleed" circuits that already exist. I'm having some difficulty seeing the advantage to this since it ruins the stock guitar sound and doesn't out perform other well known circuits intended to remedy tone change with guitar volume setting.

[Sea Chief]

JSYK this is my last attempt to explain it. That said, I'll reiterate that I have come up with a circuit that will give you more user intuitive control with your tone knob. If you will post a photo of your guitars electronics I will redraw them in diagram with the circuit I propose so that you can physically see and implement/copy the new and improved tone control circuit.

I appreciate you patience alot Chuck H. You are like a very good teacher, really patiently trying & trying.. have you ever thrown the board rubber at me? no. Have you asked me to stay behind after class, then touched me innappropriatly-? no I'm happy to report not. Very good teacher. I remember good teachers too.

Unfortunately tho I am a terrible student it seems. You've put up the number 5 info clearly.. but A) I count 5 lines above it, & 5 lines below it, making 11, so I am suddenly not in control/ baffled immediately/ i have no confidence in the very basics of this: IE if I came to 'go for the number 5' I would count up to get to 5, or count down.. in both cases arriving at a 'different number 5' to your green line one. (So what on earth is going on here? I am so stumped by this 11 anomally & I haven't even started it seems: it's Spinal Tap number 11: again it's still there).

B) even if I use your green line as 5, the figures of 22dB @ 3Hz (I can read this) remain meaningless arbitrary figures. You say they only become meaningful when I compare them. But they still remain meaningless to me; if for eg I have 33dB for 6, and 11dB for 4 I can draw a line between them, yup.. & see them equally spaced yes.. but this is all I can glean from these 3 figures. Without background knowledge to interpret 11, 22, 33, I cannot make use of them: because if volume is not a 'rational' progression because our human interpretation intervenes, then what I might have considered a steady progression between these numbers (I could transfer onto thinking about a pot's rotation, evenly, hey I could do this!) is thrown out the window. Urgh. So when I arrive finally at my 3 numbers I think are 4,5,6 pot positions (? are they-? number 11 comes back-?) I then learn I can't interpret them so simply. So I then have to imagine a new situation, onto a graph that I can't count rationally to 5, & with a camel hump going up & down.. mix these three aspects.. & I'm sooooo pickled I need to sleep.

All I can do is accept the advice of your suggestions, & impliment them, use my ears. I will certainly do a photo of my pots. They are perhaps in a bit of a pickle themselves, although they do work- I'm sure for you they're a dog's dinner.

You are very kind, SC

[Chuck H]

I count 5 lines above it, & 5 lines below it, making 11, so I am suddenly not in control/ baffled immediately/ i have no confidence in the very basics of this: IE if I came to 'go for the number 5' I would count up to get to 5, or count down.. in both cases arriving at a 'different number 5' to your green line one. (So what on earth is going on here? I am so stumped by this 11 anomally & I haven't even started it seems: it's Spinal Tap number 11: again it's still there).

As I mentioned, there are 11 lines because the zero setting is indicated. If one were to consider each number (1-10) on the knob a finite "setting" then that is 10 lines. But "1" is a quantity greater than zero. So a zero line (knob full CCW) must be included. The five lines below the "5" setting are 0, 1, 2, 3, and 4.

[Sea Chief]

As I mentioned, there are 11 lines because the zero setting is indicated. If one were to consider each number (1-10) on the knob a finite "setting" then that is 10 lines. But "1" is a quantity greater than zero. So a zero line (knob full CCW) must be included. The five lines below the "5" setting are 0, 1, 2, 3, and 4.

Ok Chuck- now I understand this bit then. I think I lost it in the fog of trying to understand other things too in the post.

If it's boilerd down in bite sized chunks like this.. maybe I can get somewhere further. I kind of panic under deluge with alot at once you see.

Appreciated- SC

[vintagekiki]

I just ran this circuit through the sims ...

Leave sims, what the ear says. Have you tried, or ...

[vintagekiki]

https://www.artisanluthiers.com/blog/understanding-guitar-pots-caps/
Understanding Guitar Pots and Caps

https://www.stewmac.com/video-and-ideas/online-resources/learn-about-guitar-pickups-and-electronics-and-wiring/which-control-pot-to-choose.html
Which control pot to choose

https://wgsusa.com/blog/choose-perfect-guitar-volume-pot
Choose The Perfect Guitar Volume Pot !

http://bluesguitarunleashed.com/forum/index.php?threads/what-capacitor-is-best-for-a-strat.5875/
What capacitor is best for a Strat

[Sea Chief]

Hi vkk.. grateful for your links. More info to fry my noggin no doubt! (tho I don't suppose you know what frying noggins are mind you).

I think I have the correct pots, really just from a quick consensus of just a few replies. 500k/ 500k. As for the -perfect- tone pot for eg, this is really way advanced for me to consider at the moment I think. I can just about cope with adding 1 capacitor on each pot.

Thanks SC

[Fluoroscope 5000]

That "Frequency independent volume control" network might be cool, if not a bit complex. I agree that you already have more info than you need. There is no "perfect" pot or cap value for any pickup. There are only recommendations relating to pickup inductance and high end roll-off characteristics. Try one of the 500k pots to see if that does it for you. Use the other 500k pot if it's still not bright enough with the tone knob maxed. You can always rewire the tone pot with a different cap from each switch lug later if you want to try that. I'm also curious what cable brand, model, and length you use, and what you plug it into. That could be part of the dark tone issue.

[vintagekiki]

I'm also curious what cable brand, model, and length you use, and what you plug it into. That could be part of the dark tone issue.

I use RG58 coaxial flexible (weave) cable, impedance of 50 Ohm, 5-6 meters long and Neutrik 1/4 '' Plugs.
The cable is for RF use, has low capacity (<100pF) and low losses. It is slightly more robust than standard guitar cables, but low capacitance allows for a clean and bright tone and does not create noise when moving.
What to say except do not believe - check.
As for the amplifier, I am a longtime fan of Vox Solid State Foundation + Vox 115 cab with PCEL 15"/ 250w.

[Fluoroscope 5000]

I use RG58 coaxial flexible (weave) cable, impedance of 50 Ohm, 5-6 meters long and Neutrik 1/4 '' Plugs.
The cable is for RF use, has low capacity (<100pF) and low losses. It is slightly more robust than standard guitar cables, but low capacitance allows for a clean and bright tone and does not create noise when moving.
What to say except do not believe - check.
As for the amplifier, I am a longtime fan of Vox Solid State Foundation + Vox 115 cab with PCEL 15"/ 250w.

I guess that's ~90pF/meter? 5-6 meters of that is in the medium C range. The Sommer Spirit LLX cable I have is 52pF/Meter. I really recommend 8-10' of it to get the resonant peak of the TS Tele pickups above the piercing 3-3.5kHz range into the 4kHz+ "bell-tone" range with 500k pots into a 1M Ohm Hi-Z input. Maybe you could read back through the thread to avoid redundancies?

[Chuck H]

Leave sims, what the ear says. Have you tried, or ...

No offense intended, but I honestly don't need to wire this up to see if I like it. Below are graphs of the circuit shown (in blue) at full volume along with a standard volume (in magenta). One is a single coil with 250k pots. The other is a humbucker with 500k pots. You can see that without even turning the volume or tone knobs the proposed circuit pretty much nulls the resonant peak from the signal. I'm already out with just that. Not shown, but the parallel resistance with the series side of the volume pot causes a 6dB taper error at volume 5 with the 500k pots and an error of 3dB with the 250k pots. Because I use my volume control to clean up from a fairly high gain sometimes this is also a bad thing for me. Sorrry, I think I'll skip this one.

[vintagekiki]

No offense intended, but I honestly don't need to wire this up to see if I like it. Below are graphs of the circuit shown (in blue) at full volume along with a standard volume (in magenta). One is a single coil with 250k pots. The other is a humbucker with 500k pots. You can see that without even turning the volume or tone knobs the proposed circuit pretty much nulls the resonant peak from the signal. I'm already out with just that. Not shown, but the parallel resistance with the series side of the volume pot causes a 6dB taper error at volume 5 with the 500k pots and an error of 3dB with the 250k pots. Because I use my volume control to clean up from a fairly high gain sometimes this is also a bad thing for me. Sorrry, I think I'll skip this one.

From the text, I did not understand best what blue and what magenta graphs represent. When doing analyzes, different pu cannot be mixed.
For the selected pu, the subject of analysis may be the effect of changing different values pots on the resonant peak from the signal.
I think you misunderstood what the ear says, it referred to #62.
when vk said leave sims, what the ear says, how do you subjectively experience (what the ear says) those few dB you mention.
If the sims existed 50 years ago, there would be no guitars, no amplifiers ...
The rock n roll crisis started when musicians instead of playing started to deal with electronics.
post #62 referred to frequency independent volume control
Have you tried. No, then why the discussion.
Try it, so let's open the story.

[vintagekiki]

I guess that's ~90pF/meter? 5-6 meters of that is in the medium C range. The Sommer Spirit LLX cable I have is 52pF/Meter. I really recommend 8-10' of it to get the resonant peak of the TS Tele pickups above the piercing 3-3.5kHz range into the 4kHz+ "bell-tone" range with 500k pots into a 1M Ohm Hi-Z input. Maybe you could read back through the thread to avoid redundancies?

The influence of cable capacitance on PU exists but is not crucial.
Cable capacitance can be measured with a C meter that has almost every dmm.
The difference in capacitance (per length meter) is the best estimate.

http://www.1728.org/resfreq.htm
Resonant frequency calculator

https://www.syscompdesign.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/guitar-pickups.pdf
Measuring impedance and frequency response of guitar pickups

1)
In order not to make myths of cable capacitance, make a C box that allows simulation of cable capacitance from 100pF to 1000pF.